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‘Man of Steel’ Writer David Goyer Addresses Film’s Controversial Ending

man of steel-kill

Zack Snyder and David S. Goyer knew the ending of Man of Steel would be controversial, but the screenwriter insists they weren’t setting out to shock — or outrage, as the case may be — fans.

Warning: Spoilers follow for those who haven’t seen, or read much about, the Warner Bros. franchise reboot.

“It’s not like we were deluding ourselves, and we weren’t just doing it to be cool,” Digital Spy quotes Goyer as saying at last night’s BATFA and BFI Screenwriters’ Lecture. “We felt, in the case of Zod, we wanted to put the character in an impossible situation and make an impossible choice.”

The impossible choice was, of course, what to do with a murderous General Zod set on revenge following the defeat of his Phantom Zone forces. In the end, Superman snapped his neck.

“This is one area, and I’ve written comic books as well, and this is where I disagree with some of my fellow comic book writers: ‘Superman doesn’t kill,'” Goyer explained. “It’s a rule that exists outside of the narrative and I just don’t believe in rules like that. I believe when you’re writing film or television, you can’t rely on a crutch or rule that exists outside of the narrative of the film. […] So the situation was, Zod says ‘I’m not going to stop until you kill me or I kill you.’ The reality is no prison on the planet could hold him and in our film Superman can’t fly to the moon, and we didn’t want to come up with that crutch.”

However, that’s not to say the Man of Steel will keep breaking the rule — or his opponents’ necks — which should come as good news to Ben Affleck’s Batman.

“We wanted him to have had that experience of having taken a life and carry that through onto the next films,” Goyer offered. “Because he’s Superman and because people idolize him, he will have to hold himself to a higher standard.”

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Comments

  • g

    Superman didn’t have to kill Zod. If Superman places his indestructible hand over Zod’s eyes, then the eye rays would bounce back into Zod’s head. At the very least blinding Zod – or even killing Zod. But that death would be caused by Zod – and an “accident” by Superman. Superman still knows what it is to take a life – even unintentionally – and shies away from full use of his powers after that. Of course, what Goyer forgets is that in the Zod-Superman battle, Superman caused tremendous loss of life – why was that not enough of a lesson?

  • Angrier Geek

    As Mark Waid so accurately pointed out, if you’re going to go this way, fine. But show him at least ATTEMPTING an alternative, which they never do. And Goyer should watch his own movie, because before the flight we Superman flying down from Zod’s ship in orbit, so he can in fact fly Zod to the moon. He just doesn’t try. And why the hell would people idolize him? All the death and destruction only happens because he’s there. He’s got no previous good deeds that they’d be grateful for his presence.

  • Diarra Harris

    Personally if they changed directors or at the very least a new writer I wouldn’t mind. However flying Zod into space to stop him. that may know him out or *ahem* kill him. But let’s say he stops Zod. Then what? nothing on earth can hold him. and he has all of Superman’s powers. As soon as he wakes up it will be the same thing again plus he was born and bred to be a warrior given a little time he would be more experience with his powers than Clark. The only way to beat Zod and him not come back is if the fight took place before everyone got zapped into the Phantom Zone and Clark tricks him onto the ship and then zap.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    ” So the situation was, Zod says ‘I’m not going to stop until you kill me or I kill you.’ ”

    Which was a situation you, as the writer, ALSO created. So quit acting all pious and like your hands were tied by the “situation”

  • http://barkingschnauzer.net/ Spacedog2k5

    Wow, reading that interview with Goyer did nothing to alleviate my utter disdain for ‘Man of Steel’. So, esssentially what it boils down to is the reason Superman in the film was fine with both wrecking a HELL of a lot of Metropolis during his fight with Zod, as well as ending it with him killing Zod is because David Goyer was the writer and that’s why. Yeah, I’m going to go and watch ‘Superman Returns’ again. For all the little whines and bitching I hear about it from “fanboys”, it’s still leaps and bounds better than ‘Man of Steel’. Up, up, and awaaay…!

  • movieartman

    superman’s eye beams cut thru the entire hull of the old ship that crashed on earth, i imagine its tougher than zod and his mens armor, there armor is as bullet proof as supermans own flesh, THERE FOR ZODS EYE BEAMS WOULD HAVE BLASTED THRU HIS HAND!

  • movieartman

    well…. dumbass…….. the death and distruction happened cus he was there, but he was the one that stopped it from destroying the entire world and human race. compared to that, one city is really not that big of a deal

  • movieartman

    WATCH THE FUCKING MOVIE AGAIN DUMBASS!
    NOT A SINGLE ONE OF SUPERMAN’S PUNCHES SENT ZOD IN TO A BUILDING! ALL THE DESTRUCTION WAS AT ZODS HAND! superman barley flat out punched zod back until they where in the sky high above the city. he was holding back the entire time.

  • humandivine

    cant fly to the moon? he was flying in space!!!!! why couldnt he fly to the moon!?

  • Bob Ross’ Afro

    Goyer’s comments on the matter are demonstrative of my dislike of Man Of Steel. Yeah, I get that there may come a point where Superman or any other hero may have to kill. But he isn’t shown trying to find an alternative just as much as he’s not shown making more of a concerted effort to save lives, even if Zod or the other Kryptonians were to prevent him from doing so. I mean, at one point in their final faceoff, a building crumbles in the background and Superman doesn’t even flinch or make an effort to turn his head and do a quick x-ray vision scan to see if there’s anyone in the building. I don’t buy the whole Metropolis was evacuated scenario either. Anyone remember how many people were STILL caught in the devastation on 9/11 after the first tower was hit and fell? Metropolis was practically decimated, by the looks of it. But it’s not really the overblown action/spectacle or the overdone cgi, or even the Zod death/necksnap that killed this movie, it was the WRITING. It just was too convoluted and plain subpar.

    I mean, one of the axioms of screenwriting IS Show, Don’t Tell. A simpler story telling would have sufficed, but things were such a mess. Seems to be an all too common occurrence with a lot of movies today and it’s VERY plain to see that Marvel’s movies are getting it fairly much more well done over DC/WB…and I say that as a lifelong DC fan over Marvel. One of the prime examples of that antithesis to Show, Don’t Tell is the scene where Clark finds the ship in the snow. For a good 20 minutes to a half an hour we get the background on Krypton, Kal-El’s birth, Zod, Jor-El and Lara, the status based society of Krypton as well as the codex thing and their artificially birthed society vs. Kal-El being a natural birth. All that background material is made known for the first half hour. THEN we Clark find the ship a few scenes later and suddenly hologram Jor-El is telling Clark EVERY SINGLE DETAIL WE JUST SPENT THE LAST HALF HOUR SITTING THROUGH?!? I understand that Clark MUST know this information too, but couldn’t they have just beamed a montage of everything we just watched into his mind (kind of like the 2nd part of The Last Son Of Krypton in Superman: The Animated Series, but a montage) instead of having hologram Jor-El verbally tell it to him in detail with accompanying crappy cgi morphing wall statues that looked more like animated office desk art/metal needles that you’d make your facial impressions in?!? LOL! All the time it took to do that, they COULD have used for characterizations and a better flow of story.

    A lot of the action could have been scaled back to allow for more characterization and story. Not saying they should do like Superman Returns and have no action, just scale it back some and allow us to get to know the characters so and story with better humorous touches sprinkled throughout (the film felt SO morose and I left the theater feeling hopeless and in need of an aspirin) to get us to actually CARE for the characters and story therein. They went WAY too far the other direction than Superman Returns, in Man Of Steel. The past and present non-linear storytelling didn’t jibe very well either and lost a consistent tonality. They tried to make Superman hip, cool, edgy, and dark like Batman using the Batman Begins story structure, but unlike Begins it just didn’t work right for Man Of Steel. In Begins, the structure worked because when compared to one another, the past and present scenes felt of the same thematic pacing and subtext, while also offering fun little moments to break the tone a bit, here and there (examples-When Alfred tells Bruce he can borrow the Rolls or when Alfred asks what his on tv Tumbler chase is and Bruce says, “D@mn good television.”). The way it came across in Man Of Steel, it shifted from quieter story moments to all-out hyper action so much that it just came across as a cinematic series of mood swings or as though it were written by a kid with hyperactive A.D.D.

    While it’s not the worst movie ever, it’s also not nearly the masterpiece as a lot of fans seem to want to believe it to be. And NO, I’m not one of those that wanted it to be like the old Reeve movies. I wanted them to move on from those too. None of that, not even the death of Zod/killing thing was my problem with the film. My problem was with the WRITING. It was just plain awful and made some of the dumbest moves ever committed on the big-screen. They need the put some new writer(s) on Superman and the other DC movies. Marvel’s pretty much owning it, WB. Take notes!

  • Christopher Fergo

    If Superman flew Zod to the moon, then what?

  • http://barkingschnauzer.net/ Spacedog2k5

    F-bombs and calling me a dumbass? Hey, at least I know the difference between “barley” and “barely”!

  • movieartman

    “”I mean, at one point in their final faceoff, a building crumbles in the
    background and Superman doesn’t even flinch or make an effort to turn
    his head and do a quick x-ray vision scan to see if there’s anyone in
    the building””

    WRRRRROOOOOOONNNNNGGGG!
    the scene where the oil tanker blows up the parking garage, superman turns back at the explosion in horror, ZOD IS INSTANTLY UPON HIM SMACKING HIM DOWN!, he cant worry about outside issues when his foe moves that fucking fast.

  • JokersNuts

    Goyer, you wrote a movie where Thousands of people are dead or trapped under wreckage and all Superman can do is make out with Lois Lane atop the ashes of their corpses. You wrote a Superman movie where Jonathan Kent tells Clark Kent that standing around doing nothing is a better alternative to saving lives (I think Uncle Ben would have something to say about that). You wrote a bleak, depressing, and ultimately self-conscience Superman movie. I’m looking forward to staying far away from the sequel.

  • Chris Noeth

    This whole nonsense just confirmed Goyer should NOT write Superman stories!
    Isn’t it a job of a screenwriter, especially for a Superman movie, to catch the characters strengths and build a good story around them? Even with a magical movie like the Donner Superman Goyer didn’t get it right. The Donner movie made sense and every scene and moment in this movie you could feel the magic. Not so in this new mess… in every scene and all the “Superman” scenes the script manages to take away a bit of the magic. I don’t need an explanation of the force and I don’t need an explanation like the one where Superman’s powers come from earths atmosphere! He can’t fly to the moon… wtf!? Don’t come up with ideas like this… just write a story that makes sense and don’t show characters that act like 5 year olds. Breaking the neck wasn’t necessary and all the other city fights, krypton atmosphere and so on and so on also!

    I’m with Lex Luthor now… after all the death and destruction and this passive alien I really want to see Lex kick this aliens butt back into space! No reason to believe in this Man Of Steel at all!

  • Guest

    My guess is they would play among the stars. Maybe even see what spring is like on Jupiter and mars.

  • movieartman

    HIM AND LOIS JUST ALMOST DIED IN A BLACK HOLE, THE KISS WAS OUT OF COMFORT AND THE NEED TO BE CLOSE TO SOMEONE, THEY WHERE TREMBLING AS THEY KISSED FOR GODS SAKE!

  • movieartman

    sooooo your such a dumbass that your with lex that superman should be held responsible for the actions of ZOD and the WORLD ENGINE? especially when um (WATCH THE MOVIE AGAIN) superman didnt actually punch zod in to a building once!, all the damage was from zod throwing superman around…. dumbass

  • monkeypants2230

    I have no problem with the killing. I think he had no choice. What I object to is that he and Lois are making out like two insensitive teenagers in devastated city, with many dead around them and then he is shown going off to make eyes at her at the Daily Planet. I thought Kent was interested in journalism not to go play with Lois. His lack of awareness for damage and the consequences pissed me of because you guys wanted to forced romance instead of looking at the most glaring thing loss of life and property which should be of some concern to Superman.

  • JokersNuts

    Meanwhile hundreds if not more are trembling under the rubble of the buildings Superman just tossed Zod into, longing to be close to someone before they die, preying a Super Hero might save them.

  • movieartman

    at least i dont make up shit that didnt happen in the movie to falsely prove my point

  • movieartman

    1.) mentally clark is just as human as lois
    2.) humans have a emotional need to hold someone close after extraordinary, dangerous and life almost ending threats.
    3.) THEY ALMOST GOT SUCKED IN TO A BLACK HOLE!
    4.) they where both trembling as they kissed, it wasnt about romance bullshit.

  • JokersNuts

    Your posts are coming off like an angry, defensive, immature child – definitely the audience for this movie.

  • braun

    waste of a response lol

  • movieartman

    im mature enough to actually pay attention to what actually took place on film, and not claim superman wrecked the city when he didnt actually damage any single building by his own actions (minus one single moment where he dragged zods face thru some windows, but thats hardly wrecking a city)

  • Joseph

    The argument “there is no other way to stop Zod” is ridiculous. It’s a comic book movie about aliens with super powers – the writer of the film is only limited by his imagination. Since the sun gives Kryptonians their powers, how about keeping Zod in a sunlight-free prison? Or a prison cell with an artificial red sun? Superman lost his powers when he boarded the Kryptonian ship – why not duplicate that environment? Or change the script so that some or all of that ship was not sucked into the black hole, and use the ship as a prison? Or change the script so that the Superman-Zod fight takes place and THEN the black hole happens, taking Zod with the rest of the kryptonians? Or any one of about a thousand other sci-fi solutions that any creative person could come up with that make sense in the world created by the filmmakers?

  • braun

    hey admit it the movie sucked goyer. let people comment on how you tried to defend yourself. Stop hiding behind fake names.

  • movieartman

    waste of a reponse to give logic that proves his solution wrong?

  • braun

    you’ve never read a superman comic before

  • braun

    Goyer stop liking your own comments

  • movieartman

    im fucking FINE if they didnt like the movie, or zod being killed, what im not fine with is when they claim bullshit like superman destroyed the city and other crap!

  • Mister_E

    Just stop movieartman, you are in the minority here. You are defending a poorly written movie and coming off sounding like a bratty fanboy. It wasn’t a good movie. Accept it. It wasn’t a bad movie either, but you are trying to make it something it is not.

  • braun

    I knew it was you

  • David

    How about in Smallville, when Superman slams into Zod, plows through a 7-11 (and anyone inside it) and into a gas station that then explodes (along with anyone in the vicinity) in the middle of the afternoon?

  • movieartman

    you people wont attcept logical changes made in a ALTERNATE movie universe, and im being the bratty frat boy?

  • Zaid Otrebor

    I don’t know if I was watching a different movie, but wasn’t Zod the one that wanted the fight in the city all along, to show supes that he was going to obliterate all makind the way he destroyed his people (and his purpose)?

    I won’t argue that this movie could be resolved in a more easy (and less casualty-inducing way), but the Kal-El that grew in this cinematic universe isn’t the one that grew with a fortress that schooled him in the knowledge of the “twenty-something known galaxies”, is an unexperienced dude with a farming mother and a hologram for a blood father. At least he didn`t depowered Zod to then throw him in a pit to his death, Superman wouldn’t do that like…ever, oh, except for Superman 2.

  • movieartman

    THE WORLD ENGINE DESTROYED THE CITY NOT THE FUCKING SUPERMAN ZOD FIGHT.
    SUPERMAN NEVER ACTUALLY PUNCHED ZOD IN TO A BUILDING ONCE IN THE ENTIRE FIGHT

    building #1 = zod plows him thru the corner of a building right on the edge of the crater, its already pretty much destroyed.

    building #2
    = they continue flying back until landing in a office level in another
    building, no one in sight probably already evacuated dew to the world
    engine like the daily planet people did, ZOD’S eye beams blast the
    building in half from the inside. zod caused this distruction 100%

    building #3
    = kal gets thrown from the falling building and goes thru the wall of
    what appears to be a parking garage, in witch zod throws a lex corp oil truck in to. the OIL TRUCK’s explosion causes the garage to fall not superman

    building #4 = zod and superman fight along its surface, superman bumps it once causing a crater that doesnt stretch more than 3-4 floors.
    zod jumps up and down along its surface causing that level of damage everytime he comes in to contact with the building.
    zod and superman slam in to each other, and cause a bit bigger of a crator
    and that wall of the building slides down from the lack of support, the
    building itself does not fall.

    building #5 = the
    2 of them barely fly thru the top floor of the construction site, no
    people in sight. then fly back breaking thru the steel bars

    superman and zod at this point punch each other thru the air across the city, not going thru anymore buildings until

    building #6-7 = zod hides and then surprise attacks superman and sends him thru the walls of 2 buildings, causing mostly surface damage

    building #8-10 = zod spin throws superman thru multiple buildings THIS IS ALL ZOD

    building #11 = the train station after they
    fight into space, they crash back down in to the train station, no one
    is shown to be killed by there impact

    SO SORRY BUT NO SUPERMAN
    DID NOT KILL THOUSANDS or even Hundreds OF PEOPLE, the only time that
    may have came even close to happending was building #2’s collapse and
    that was all zods fault. superman did no actual structural damage to
    said building it was all zods eye beams.

    not one of superman’s blows actually sent zod in to a building. that was all superman getting
    hit. the times he punched zod it was in the air above the city or on the
    street in close quarters.

    he was 100% restraining himself the entire fight until they got high HIGH above the city

    asking why superman didnt take zod out of the city? HE TOOK HIM IN TO OUTER FUCKING SPACE, YOU CANT GET MORE OUT OF THE CITY THAN THAT, AND YOU KNOW WHAT IT DIDNT FUCKING WORK!

    dont concur with my facts here, go to solar movie or tv links, watch the fight again and PAY ATTENTION

  • Frankie Addiego

    *rolls eyes* Superman’s hand isn’t indestructible to heat vision. Read a friggin’ comic book. Also, show me where we actually SEE someone die in all the wreckage? Come on!

  • amp69

    Wonder Woman did it first. Just sayin’!

  • Frankie Addiego

    You rock!

  • West

    I hope the rest of the comments aren’t as venomous as the sampling I just read.

    But it was enough for me to pass, for now.

  • knobstik

    so fuck off and watch it then.MOS was a TOP film you parochial dork..

  • amp69

    BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH What a joke!

  • David Hater

    what i really dont like about the ending the most is okay he broke his code then screams but then afterwards when the city is still in ruins then Superman tells the military i don’t want anybody following me takes out there weapons finally becomes Clark for the Daily Planet and smiles at everyone and everything is all good wtf David add up your events right.

  • Frankie Addiego

    It just pisses me off that all the people who act like they turned him into Charles Manson over this clear case of justifiable homicide; and they get on their high horse about how, “they don’t understand Superman,” when he had killed Zod in the comics and Superman II, under less dire circumstances.

    “Oh, but… there’s a deleted scene with the arctic police so Zod survived…” yeah, it’s a deleted scene, so it doesn’t mean jack, especially since it was included as a deleted scene in what was already a drastically different version of the film (“The Richard Donner Cut”) but okay, let’s pretend it does, and let’s ignore the fact that he kills Nuclear Man in IV and even seems to leave the bad guys for dead in III. Those films never actually indicate that he refuses to kill, let alone give any insight as to why. People just sort-of “know” he isn’t supposed to kill through popular osmosis and use it against this film when they were clearly not just doing that because it’s cool.

    In fact, it’s funny: a lot of the people bashing these films love the Marvel Universe films as this sort-of alternative to the Nolan/WB/DC films (never mind that the Superman/Batman film will apparently not be in canon with the DK trilogy) which are too “daarrrrrrrrk,” but in Iron Man, he seems to off some of the guards at the POW camp when he first gets his suit, and I think he kills Jeff Daniels (it’s been a while) meanwhile, in Captain America: First Avenger, he and his buddies kill. Why? It would be unrealistic for a bunch of soldiers NOT to, agreed, but they keep complaining that the Nolan films make any effort to be “realistic”* in the first place.

    It’s all just a bunch of “oh, you kids today are all a bunch of amoral bums! I’m okay, but you’re too depressing.” Yes, I know how aggravating the “update everything” crowd can be when they rag on anything that seems even slightly old-fashioned, but come on, fighting fire with fire?

    * Realistic as in they’re still movies about a man who fights crime with an arsenal of bat-themed weapons and a man from outer space who can fly and see through walls.

  • Frankie Addiego

    I can understand that, but I also get tired of people acting like this is the first time in 75 years Superman’s ever killed and that they’ve turned him into John McClaine.

    It’s obvious what they were trying to do and it wasn’t just “cooool, he broke his neck,” but I will agree that Snyder isn’t the strongest director out there and I wouldn’t even be too bummed if they replaced him for the Superman/Batman team-up.

  • Flinkman

    Well yea, you’re the one calling people names and dropping F-bombs when people disagree with you.

  • Joe

    What Goyer is saying makes sense. Why would Superman have a “no killing policy” in the first place? In this movie, he isn’t a superhero yet, he has just shown up for the first time for this fight (similarly to Superman:Earth One). In the comics, his moral code comes from editorial mandate. By having Superman kill Zod in the movie, he essentially has a reason now to adopt a “no killing” policy, because of the experience he has gone through.

  • wacoose

    The old ship and the armor are not affected by the yellow sun–they are not as tough as Superman.

  • rashad

    solid reasoning. don’t think anybody will get it until the second one comes out. i hate that people want superman to be some kind messiah-like perfect creature. he can still be noble and genuine even if he was to kill someone like zod. also the scene after it with him crying and lois holding him is literally the best way to contrast all the violence and show that this superman is very human in his feelings. going threw all of that in a day is just effing stressful. Also shows how Lois can be there for him during all of it. good stuff.

  • Alex W

    So how many people whined about Superman killing Zod in Superman 2?

  • Nat Defozzi

    I loved the movie. The only shitty part was: Everything involving Pa Kent. I’m fine with most everything else, and I’ve been a big fan for 50 years. Yah, 50, punks. So go wipe the snot from your noses and quite yer bitchin’, Supes is a popular fictional character, he will have fluctuations in his story, look, etc., nothing is permanent. Holler upstairs to mommy, she’ll bring you some cookies and milk and you’ll feel better.

  • movieartman

    I KNOW RIGHT!
    and in mos it was completely justified, zod killed or ordered the deaths of thousands of people, and at the moment of his death was about to murder a family of 4.

    in superman 2 he had depowered zod to where he was not a threat to anyone at all, crushed his hand and threw him in to a icy watery grave. and SMILED ABOUT IT!

  • Mister_E

    The problem is that he wasn’t a noble superman that people could look up to. I don’t mind him killing Zod, I totally accept it. It’s the blatant disregard for innocent lives. In this universe, if I saw Superman coming, I would piss myself because there is a really good chance I will get killed by accident.

  • TheTruth

    Everyone needs to calm down, the movie was a great movie, and makes sense if you actually pay attention to whats going on. Superman didn’t destroy the city, the world engine did, the whole time superman is trying to stop the world engine and Zod. Superman had to kill Zod, it was the only way to stop him, and that point in the movie is what made me love the movie, the filmmakers took a risk, that made the movie unique they should be praised for it not condemned. Also did anyone freak out when Batman killed Ra’s Al Ghul in Batman Begins? yeah I know he didn’t snap his neck, but he left him for dead, so indirectly he killed him, and Batman isn’t supposed to kill as well.

  • Chris Noeth

    This is exactly why I love the internet.
    Regarding your argument: Superman flew Zod directly from the Kent farm into the city and NOT an empty corn field or something. There are many of this “strange” decisions the writer delivered and not one is in favor to Superman’s character we all love from his years in comics and the first movies. I had high hopes for this movie, because it was a good opportunity to show a new generation why this ‘guy’ is SUPERman… but he just came out as a troubled guy with powers somehow.

  • Mister_E

    This! All this is what I have a problem with. Killing Zod is okay in my book, its the disregard of human life that irks me. He didn’t even try once to save a human life: catch a falling person here, stop a building from toppling over there. At least attempt to save someone and it would’ve put a better view in my eyes.

  • Batt Damon

    Go fuck yourself

  • MZ

    What about the punches that sent Zod through the silo’s, farms, and then blow up (directed by Superman) the gas station?
    That was 100% directed by him. Starting at the farm and taking the fight right into the middle of the town.

  • Jason

    I wasn’t expecting much to begin with from this film since I consider the 1977
    SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE an amazing film that beautifully captures the essence of
    what Superman is. After watching this film, I don’t have high hopes for this
    new, twisted franchise that made SUPERMAN RETURNS look like a
    masterpiece.

    It’s the screenwriter’s and the director’s job to establish
    a cohesive storyline that resolve every point it inserts into the film. It makes
    sense to leave a few crumbs that will establish the next set of stories for the
    franchise but this film did a horrid job of creating a character people can
    relate to.

    Watch it for yourself and see. You may like it or you may hate
    it as much as I do since this film is so divisive.

    SPOILERS BELOW —
    YOU’VE BEEN WARNED!

    The things they tried to pull off in this movie were
    just unbearable —

    -The Codex is absolutely BS. A useless plot
    point. What the hell was this skull all about and why was it so important? All I
    saw was a skull jizzing into the embryos of Kryptonians. Granted the connection
    of Lois to Superman was leaked throughout the news but that doesn’t justify
    taking her back to the ship at all. Again, it was a simple way to use her as a
    way for Superman to escape, nothing more.

    – About this environment BS, we
    all know Superman gets his power from the sun. They decide to through this
    wrench of environment issues just to make it “believable”. Seems like MAN OF
    STEEL raided AVATAR’s closet by having people ride flying animals in Krypton and
    throwing in the “we’re having atmospheric issues” for good measure. Superman had
    over 30 years to get over it but it took Zod 5 min? Please. Lack of atmosphere
    didn’t seem to be an issue for Superman when he decided to fly to the edge of
    space where there’s no atmosphere whatsoever. He seemed happy and “breathing”
    fine.

    – With regards to terraforming Earth, what’s the point? If Krypton
    sent thousands of ships for exploration and not 1 was able to create a habitable
    world after their amazing “terraforming”, why the hell would Zod think it would
    work in this instance (BTW, Zod states he’s a warrior while Jor El is a
    Scientist. How the hell were these brute warriors smart enough to change the
    Phantom Zone equipment to a Warp Drive? Thought that’s what scientists do, not
    warriors). Looks to me the scientists messed up big time developing that
    terraforming machine that warriors were able to fix.

    – What was the point of showing a ship with an
    kryptonian empty pod? To me it looked like the director wanted to imply that a
    Kryptonian did survive when the ship crash landed 20,000 yrs ago and may even be
    alive. What happened to that plot point? Forgotten, much like the brains of the
    creators of this abomination.

    – Couldn’t stand the embryos-in-a-ship
    plotpoint as it held the potential for a can of worms. As for Superman playing
    abortion doctor, the embryos were on the ship AKA the “Fortress” of Solitude
    that landed over 20,000 years ago that Superman discovers in Canada. The ship
    was undisturbed for al that time until he showed up. If Superman is supposed to
    be the only hope for “his people” he should have found a way to acclimate them
    to this world. If HE could survive, why can’t they?

    – If a group of
    people as strong as Superman were in town and I were Superman, I would tell them
    to get the hell out of town. And if the people decided to run screaming, I
    wouldn’t blame them for one bit. That’s when genocide comes knocking on your
    door. A quiet community suddenly disturbed in such a fashion would certainly
    cause understandable fear and panic. I wouldn’t tell them to stay in their homes
    or businesses. That was just insane to me. If he would have at least moved the
    fight elsewhere, it would have shown that he was thinking about the welfare of
    others, not just his mom or Lois.

    – Fact is two ships came straight to
    the Kent Farm to find the Cryo-ship that held Kal El to find the codex (stupid
    codex). No other reason than that. Can’t say there weren’t looking as Zod was so
    pissed that he flipped the car into the house. If the military noticed this (in
    real life they would have), they would ask: Why go there? What’s so important
    there? Must be important if Lois Lane was at the house to. (Hell, ET handled the
    arrival of an alien better than this turd).

    – Superman’s Cryo-Ship. How
    was that even picked up by the military? They don’t know where it is except
    Superman and Ma Kent. Lois knows how to kickoff the phantom zone but needs the
    ship. Last I checked, Lois isn’t Supergirl nor did she have a spare tow truck
    lying around. All we see is the ship sitting on a military truck about to be
    loaded onto a plane. Why didn’t Superman just fly the Cryo-ship to the plane?
    What the hell was he doing that was so important that he couldn’t do it himself
    (risking the exposure of his identity)? Wouldn’t that raise questions?


    Superman killing Zod was a low point that was immediately followed up with a
    shallow comedic scene involving unmanned surveillance plane. People keep
    comparing Superman to a cop who has to sometimes use lethal force. Difference is
    a cop isn’t faster than a speeding bullet. If cops we’re they wouldn’t need
    guns. Why didn’t Superman just cover Zod’s eyes when he was shooting heat vision
    at a family of idiots? Why stand there when you can, I don’t know, move to the
    right & out the door? Why didn’t Superman just pull a KILL BILL 2 and rip
    Zod’s eyes out (or at the very least gouge them)? Killing is ok but eye removal
    is too much? You can’t heat what you can’t see and you certainly can’t heat
    without eyes. Since solar radiation is what powers Kryptonians, why didn’t
    Superman just bury Zod deep in the ground and surround him in lead (lead blocks
    radiation)? He’d be blind and unable to stay powered without the Sun’s Ray. If
    friggin’ smoke from a terraforming machine can weaken Superman in South Asia,
    why can’t he do something similar to Zod?

    I love Superman and his history
    but this movie butchered the character’s image. Amazed people don’t realize what
    they’re watching. Puppets just enjoying the half-assed special effects and
    glossing over the obvious mistakes the film had.

    Comics Alliance and Mark
    Waid (writer of SUPERMAN: BIRTHRIGHT and KINGDOM COME) wrote on this as well

  • *rolls eyes*

    LOL! This is my favorite post of the month. Nothing’s more tragically hilarious than a snarky fanboy comment.

  • Rob Durdle

    His orginal point is this…

    If I set fire to your house, then put the fire out myself. Am I a Hero if thats the only heroic act I’m known for?

  • Yurina

    Supes could easily have taken Zod up and about to the sky and or to the moon and fought not to mention of how all that money on the CG building destruction could have been saved.

  • Yurina

    Oh my god, I am so glad someone else also thought of the “yanking Zod to the moon” solution. How they showed it in the film was really lazy and contrived.

  • Batt Damon

    Plus there was zero building to a romantic relationship between them. They met like three times and barely exchanged any dialogue. The bullshit post-apocalyptic make out session was completely unjustified

  • DaMak

    Actually THIS was a waste of a response.

  • Paul

    The thing is Superman has killed in the comics as well: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/46385/2932470-Superman_kills_01.jpg

    That wasn’t Zod in that picture, they were other Kryptonian Criminals. But he killed them by exposing them to green kryptonite. And after that he vowed to never kill again. Like how he killed Zod in the movie, and will now vow to never kill again.

    Also Superman did kill Doomsday. He had no idea that Doomsday would recover from the blow and was set to kill him to prevent Doomsday from killing everyone else on the planet…you know just like he had to do with Zod.

  • Eric

    Agree with most of what you said. Although, I thought the killing of Zod was acceptable. What bothered me most was how he ignored human casualties like it was brushing dirt off his shoulder. That right there is not Superman-esque. Superman is supposed to put innocent lives before everything. Always.

  • theduck0

    First off, sir, you’re being incredibly rude. Secondly, did we, even once, see Superman try to get someone out from under the rubble? No, but he found the time to lock lips with Lois. And finally, what did he do to move the battle from Metropolis…?

    Superman killing Zod was a failure on the part of the screenwriter, who had originally had a different ending in mind (the ships ran on “Phantom warp drives”, remember?). They just decided it wasn’t a strong ending, so they went with the neck snapping. So, in effect, they’ve stated they went for the shock value. This revisionist history changes nothing – the filmmakers disrespected the character of Superman for cheap thrills.

  • Michael Mah’moud

    With Superman 2 some people saw Zod, Ursa and Non getting arrested by the police. I understand that Man of Steel Clark had no other choice and that this is his first kill and with killing Zod/the genesis chamber he will then be the last son of Krypton. This was suppose to be dark moment in his life(a moment for the audience to sympathize with) but it was then followed by an out of place lighter scene and Superman asking a general(who I would understand if he does doubt and wouldn’t trust Superman and would want to find a way to destroy this version) to trust him but don’t try to track him. He’s been Superman for 2 days.

    I have seen various Superman stories that had Superman kill or Superman struggling with whether or not he should kill the villain but realizes there is another way(my favorite quote was in Action Comics#14 when you face the impossible do the impossible) but honestly there should have been a better writer to do this scene and get what David Goyer/Snyder to do this scene.

  • DaMak

    I think the point is that Clark is new at being Superman, He probably had some value on life growing up the way he did, but being in a situation where killing Zod was necessary to saves lives would be the catalyst for him not ever wanting to take a life in future film.

    Besides, didn’t Superman in the previous films Kill Zod after he was depowered? I why is this any different.

  • Batt Damon

    Except it worked in the context of that story and Wonder Woman is a trained soldier, I can buy her making a tough design like that. Superman’s supposed to be a symbol of hope, not a killing machine

  • DaMak

    good point

  • DarthTigris

    Really, this is all that needs to be said in response to Goyer’s statements. And as a writer, he knows this.
    It was lazy, bad writing. The end.

  • amp69

    Cops are force to kill, soldiers are force to kill, why is it so hard to accept a fictional character killing a fictional supervillain that has already killed innocent fictional people?

  • amp69

    He is a killing machine he didn’t kill those fictional people Zod did and Superman prevented him from killing anymore fictional people.

  • Paul

    Correcting myself, that was Zod in that picture. That was from Superman #22 published in 1988, BTW.

  • movieartman

    i was reffering JUST to the metropolis fight
    he dragged zod in to smallville by accident in his rage of zod attacking martha

  • movieartman

    THEY WHERE GOING TO KILL HIS MOM

  • DaMak

    I think the writers were looking for a bit of realism here. Everything you stated could work, In a Corny,Soap Opera/Comic book-ish like scenerio. But in a realistic setting, Who would stop to think “Hey, How about we just send aPART of the ship to the Phantom Zone, Did out Zod from whatever rubble he’s in when the ship crashed and use it as a prison”.

    I think they way it played out was worked well for the film.

  • movieartman

    no it would be superman was in your house not out of malice in any manner, but then people that want to hurt him set fire to your house to get him, but superman saves your house and stops them.

  • movieartman

    would you be paying attention to anything but the fucker who just tried to kill your mom?

  • DaMak

    But no one died from it, or at the very least no bodies were show flopping in the air…

  • movieartman

    they didnt disrespect jack shit, superman killed zod IN THE COMICS and in the previous film, it wasnt about shock value, it was about seeing superman have to make a horrific dicision for the greater good, and the emotional toll it took on him.

  • movieartman

    the kiss was hardly making out, was not out of romance it was out of emotional dispair and exhaustion, superman saved her…. 3-4 times in this film at that point

  • Andrew Breneman

    I just feel that Superman – being Superman, a character that far and away is more powerful than all other DC heroes – should hold himself to a superior and unflinching moral code.
    Is it realistic? No. Is an indestructible man with the power of God realistic? No. At least make him an ideal instead of giving him all sorts of material to make MoS2 all Grim-dark.

  • Joao Fontes

    its fiction of course… but to make it more realistic Zod had to die… there was no way to contain him and Superman had to choose between the victims or Zod… well… not much of a choice…. and the regret he showed after that proves he his the best that is. i agree with Goyer… besides, in the comics he killed Zod and two others without facing this kind of choice.

  • Seth Wilson

    It’s more like he was hiding in your house pretending to be a resident but in fact been lying to everybody for his own good but he didn’t mean for anyone to get hurt from his lies.

  • Seth Wilson

    Goyer said there’s no prison that could hold him on the planet. If that was true Superman should have just killed all of Zod’s forces, because the prison that don’t exist in MOS reality was the Phantom Zone.

  • bustermike

    …….he couldve jumped

  • http://rantocracy.blogspot.com MC

    I always thought they died in Superman II when they were turned into humans and fell into the ice pits in his Fortress of Solitude. It isn’t like Superman accidentally killed Zod in that situation… he straight up murdered him… not a superpowered Zod… a human Zod. And Lois killed the woman.

    So with that in retrospect, this controversy now seems silly.

  • mel

    during the Smallville fight, Superman heat visions one of the Kryptonians hands. Watch the movie again.

  • gthorne

    no. it was a weak and, frankly, cheap choice and it is the same weak excuse given when John Byrne did it in the ’80s.

    Superman is DAYLIGHT hero. Literally. He doesn’t kill. He finds a way. That’s the POINT of Superman. BATMAN is a night time, a MOONLIGHT hero and his core is a shadow that he has to fight.

    They are not interchangeable nor should their origins be, in any way, similar. It’s a mistake to assume all superheroes need a core of personal tragedy (although being orphaned by the death of your species is plenty.)

    I’m a Goyer fan for the most part but this was a misfire. Not every superhero has a dark core and assuming one for Superman is to not understand the character or the archetype.

    Superman doesn’t kill. He doesn’t need to carry the memory of a murder with him to prevent him doing it again because his PARENTS raised him right. It would NEVER OCCUR to him to kill someone.

    Lots of regular people are physically killing people with their hands. I’m one of them. Why don’t I?

    Not because I got a free murder in my 20s and now regret it for life. I don’t do it because my parents raised a good son. It never occurs to me.

    Superman is supposed to be the best of us. Of all of us and of all heroes.

    Not an angel, certainly. He’s flawed and imperfect but there’s a REASON batman refers to him as “the boy scout.”

    This was a CLEAR miss and it’s part of why, while this was a fun movie that I really enjoyed and will see again, it was NOT a Superman movie.

  • mel

    During the Smallville fight, Superman tried several times to jump and the Kryptonians always brought him down. I’m thinking the same would have happened when fighting Zod.

  • Capt. Reality Slap

    Ooooor we could all just get over it and get back to, I don’t know, living your real life, it’s frigging fiction at the end of the day. You like it or you don’t. Giving this much credence to something that you don’t like smacks of “Methinks thou dost protest too much.”

  • XxSnakeProxX

    Youre right that he created the situation, but theres nothing lazy or bad about the writing simply because you disagree with it. Grow up.

  • Naked Man Comics

    I think a more dramatic ending would of been if the fight in space lasted longer. If Zod gloated and laugh at Superman and asphyxiated. Then you can have Supes be all emo about being the last of his kind. He can also be emo about understanding Zod’s need to have a sense of family. You’d have a great follow up about it in Superman’s ship with Jor-El. Then do the whole thing with the army and the Daily Planet.

  • WatcherII

    Alternate movie universe? Did Zod Blow up Vulcan? Why
    would this be a different superman universe? Why would it be logical to
    alienate the built in fan base? What makes your points so logical? Why would
    you even argue logic in a movie about an alien coming to earth in a uni-tard
    with godly powers? There are things that make sense and there are things that
    do not. Whether we accept them or not has to do with the narrative of the
    vehicle conveying the information to us. IE the movies narrative is that the
    use of his powers would make the world shun him and alienate him, and maybe try
    and kill him. His surrogate father opts to be swallowed by a hurricane rather
    than to allow his adopted son to run out and save him. that narrative dictates
    that events to the contrary of these well-defined and purposely stated fears
    would naturally be the end results once he finally did put his cape on and
    start dolling out superman style justice. What is ILLOGICAL is the proving
    correct of those fears by having a superman roll out there and cause billions
    of dolars in property damage and the unprecedented loss of lives. the narative
    of the film suggests that the pathos of superman was to protect these people at
    all costs, including that of his own safety. In seeing his willingness for self-sacrifice
    on their behalf, the people would then rally around him. But that would not
    happen if he could be seen wrecking shop on manmade cities and small towns. You
    need to watch this film you defend so vehemently again. Superman knocks zod
    into several buildings, at one time even raking Zod’s face against the surface
    of a glass skyscraper (that scraper subsequently crumbling to the ground in the
    pullback shot right after). By the time the battle is over and entire American
    city is in ruins, you think we forgive people for that? you think there would
    be no backlash? you’re being naive. In the original superman II, superman tried
    to fight Zod and his followers in the city, but then they do this poignant
    scene where he sees the destruction happening all around him, the victims laid
    out waiting for medical attention, and he flies away, unafraid of whatever
    names his supporters will call him, he flies away to protect the people because
    he knows Zod will follow to someplace safe where they could fight it out.
    THAT’S OUR HERO. He’s been around for over 60years, Mr. Movieartman. You should
    grab a comic and read it, you might seriously enjoy what you find!

  • WatcherII

    Uhhhmmm, Mr. Movieartman, if Kal wasn’t there in the first place there would have been no need for the Kryptonians to come down and start tearing things to pieces. The point is valid. Enthusiastic champions on the new like yourself don’t seem to ever realize that Goyer and Nolen’s goals are to DECONSTRUCT the hero mythologies. IE a Batman who saves no one but the joker in the dark knight, and a superman who’s the equivalent of a WMD on the populous because of the trouble he attracts. You apply any realism to these films, which is apparently what the new angle is supposed to be trying to do, you have to accept that people would do nothing but Blame superman for the destruction of half of metropolis. There’re no two ways around it.

  • WatcherII

    How could his solution be wrong? None of it is real,
    therefore there is no right or wrong, just preference. If you were arguing for preference that would be one thing, but to call a guy’s opinion about how one alien should have killed another “wrong” is in itself inherently nonsensical. Calm down a little, man. Less coffee and high and mighty horse riding. I’ve been reading your posts and your more off than you are on about your arguments.

  • movieartman

    sooooo the best fucker of all of us would let a family die so he doesnt get his hands vaguely dirty?

  • movieartman

    the phantom zone was already well closed when he got back to metropolis, and no machine was left that could open a new portal

  • movieartman

    wrong in that it would not have worked in the world they already set up

  • movieartman

    there is a difference between blaiming him for being sent here which he has no choice about, and him phisically destroying the city which he did not.

    BOTTOM LINE he was not responsible for zods actions! and should not under any cicrumtances be punished for them

  • movieartman

    it would never accur to a moral human being that in order to stop a murderous madman from killing a innocent family it might require you to kill him? jesus your fucking delusional

  • synnerman

    Are we still whinging about this?

    Superman executed three Kryptonians in 1989. Modern Age Superman does kill and has killed.

    Are we going to start mourning the deaths of all of the people on the Death Star and Death Star 2?

  • Seth Wilson

    Then the film would have ended as well as Superman IV

  • movieartman

    ITS ALTERNATE FROM THE COMICS is what i mean!

    I JUST WATCHED THE FIGHT ON THE COMPUTER other than the one building he dragged zods face thru the windows not a single one did he structurably damage by his own direct actions.

    building #1 = zod plows him thru the corner of a building right on the edge of the crater, its already pretty much destroyed.

    building #2
    = they continue flying back until landing in a office level in another
    building, no one in sight probably already evacuated dew to the world
    engine like the daily planet people did, ZOD’S eye beams blast the
    building in half from the inside. zod caused this distruction 100%

    building #3
    = kal gets thrown from the falling building and goes thru the wall of
    what
    appears to be a parking garage, in witch zod throws a lex corp oil
    truck in to. the OIL TRUCK’s explosion causes the garage to fall not
    superman

    building #4 = zod and superman fight along its surface, superman
    bumps it once causing a crater that doesnt stretch more than 3-4 floors.
    zod jumps up and down along its surface causing that level of damage everytime he comes in to contact with the building.
    zod and superman slam in to each other, and cause a bit bigger of a crator
    and that wall of the building slides down from the lack of support, the
    building itself does not fall.

    building #5 = the
    2 of them barely fly thru the top floor of the construction site, no
    people in sight. then fly back breaking thru the steel bars

    superman and zod at this point punch each other thru the air across the city, not going thru anymore buildings until

    building #6-7 = zod hides and then surprise attacks superman and sends him thru the walls of 2 buildings, causing mostly surface damage, superman drags zods face across the windows.

    building #8-10 = zod spin throws superman thru multiple buildings THIS IS ALL ZOD

    building #11 = the train station after they
    fight into space, they crash back down in to the train station, no one
    is shown to be killed by there impact

    BULLSHIT DUDE

  • synnerman

    Here’s the timeline.
    Kryptonian machine dropped in Metropolis: Metropolis is fucked.

    Superman goes to Indian Ocean to stop other Kryptonian machine.

    U.S. Military flies rocket to Metropolis from Smallville *on a subsonic aircraft*

    Metropolis was already “on fire” since someone was using the fire analogy. By the time the Supes Zod fight happened in Metropolis, the city should have been deserted because and earthquake machine had been rattling it for HOURS. Daily Planet people are notorious risk takers.

  • Seth Wilson

    But still convenient Zod is the only one not pulled into the Phantom Zone, so Superman is forced to kill him.

  • movieartman

    zod was on the ancient kryptonian ship, and is stuck in its rubble after it crashed while his own ship is swollowed up in the black hole

  • Dan Riedel

    Someone needs to grow a pair…

    Have you seen Superman 2 (the THEATRICAL release, because THAT one is canonical – the Donner cut few people saw)?

    Have you seen Superman 3 or even 4? Also theatrical.

    With those 3 movies alone Superman killed FOUR people with his bare hands (Zod, Fake Brainiac, The Evil Superman, Nuclear Man).

    In the comics, he killed Doomsday NUMEROUS TIMES (killer punch, sent him to the end of the Universe), and the Cyborg Superman.

    And as stated before, he killed Zod and company in an alternate universe too… but he still killed them.

    Not to mention that he almost laid waste to the entire UN in the Kingdom Come story arch.

    When pushed, Superman has to do what he has to do.

  • https://sites.google.com/site/capelesscrusader Joshua Epstein

    There is such a thing as “internal logic” even when dealing with fiction. The way that abilities are represented needs to be consistent in order to maintain the suspension of disbelief.

  • WatcherII

    Argreed, he’s not responsible. However, he is responsible for those actions being escalated by taking after him the way he did. Clearly the matter was all about Kal and the codex he had in his DNA, if he left they would have followed him to a battleground of his choosing and thus, no one would be complaining (about this) now. ;)

  • Seth Wilson

    Zod is still conveniently the only one left behind, by the writer, so Superman is forced to kill him.

  • WatcherII

    fair enough, you don’t think that raking a man’s face against the surface of a building, destroying it, or wrecking an Ihop is a little irresponsible?

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  • Bliss

    um, Superman drove Zods body across a building and he drove him into the fake grand central station…

  • Lucas Lowman

    THIS!

  • Seth Wilson

    Convenient, but Goyer got his point across.

  • Seth Wilson

    Realism would have been he wasn’t able to snap his neck due to equal or close to equal strength. And snapping a neck not easy.

  • Seth Wilson

    According to Goyer logic of Superman don’t kill, I guess Batman will be cutting criminal down with double glocks.

  • DaMak

    that wouldn’t make sense. If I met an EXACT copy of myself, I could easily snap his neck. I’m sure snapping Zod’s neck would fall in that same catagory.

  • Seth Wilson

    So braking someone neck is that easy without training or any experience.

  • josh john

    the question that the interviewer suppose to ask is, “stopping Zod so he doesn’t kill those 3 innocent civilians doesn’t mean a thing since their destruction KILLED THOUSANDS of people with the mass destruction of metropolis!” that’s the question i want to ask! i did not feel anything or even care about how superman felt when he killed zod. what i want to know why wasn’t the nuclear-like explosion of their battle wasn’t addressed?? that alone killed more people than i can imagine! and please don’t tell me superman evacuated thousands of people right before they fought. or the city evacuated the city. there’s no way they/he could have done that! so who cares about zod getting his neck snapped. who cares that superman saved those 3 lives. mass death should have been mentioned!

  • Frank

    Nuclear-like explosion of their battle? One building fell during their entire fight. If you’re going to complain about their battle and the damage that it caused, at least state the correct collateral damage.

  • Kaine Morrison

    There is always ANOTHER way! Superman could have jumped/fly upwards while holding Zod instead of snapping his neck, which also technically should be impossible,,,

  • Frank

    Your comment is very annoying to me.

  • Frank

    While a few people on this website feel that this movie did a lot of things wrong, I thought it did everything right. I’m tired of comic book movies that children are able to understand. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that but if I wanted to feel that way about comic books as well I would start reading series from the children’s section. I want in-depth psychological meaning to movies and Man of Steel gave that to me, along with The Dark Knight Trilogy. I sincerely hope Warner Bros. continues to make the DC Cinematic Universe this way.

  • Capital_7

    That krypto-forming apparatus likely killed a million or more people in midtown “Manhattan”.

  • movieartman

    THAT does not count as there one on one fight

  • Capital_7

    Ha ha haa!!! Love it!

  • movieartman

    across some windows, grand central station was them crashing in from re entry, and we saw the inside of the station no one was hurt

  • amp69

    Awesome!

  • movieartman

    1.) raking his face across some windows, the only building that was destoyed was #2 and that was all from zod’s eye beams
    2.) they crashed in to the ihop as a result of superman intercepting faora before she could take out another a-10, he might now have been able to see where they where going to land, he isnt god he cant control everything

  • movieartman

    no actually they would not have
    1.) superman escpaed from there ship to save lois
    2.) he had to go to smallvile to save his mom
    3.) when they activated the world engine they no longer needed to presue him and didnt as the doctor confired that kal need not be alive to have the codex extracted.
    4.) once both ships where destroyed, zod vowed to make humanity suffer for kal’s actions, if superman tried to run to get zod out of the city, zod would have just started slaughtering civilians.

  • Shane

    Not to mitigate the sanctity of life or the “Hero’s Code” that recognizes the value of that life, but am I the only who’s noticed that the Punisher’s enemies don’t usually return to kill more innocent people? I understand the necessity of having a worthwhile villian in a comic book series, but I’ve kinda lost a little respect for Batman for screwing around with the Joker like he always does. If he knew that the Joker would go on to kill Robin (Jason Todd), I have to wonder if Batman would’ve simply dropped him off at Arkham during his last visit before that happened.

  • movieartman

    THERE IS NOTHING ACTUALLY WRONG WITH HIM TAKING OUT ZOD IN CONTEXT OF THE STORY, if you dont like it, FINE, but dont say it didnt work on film

  • Rick Diehl

    That is one amazingly stupid answer from what is pretty much one amazingly bad writer.

  • Rick Diehl

    No, he did not kill Zod in the original Superman II and up until this movie nobody ever suggested that he did. In the cut they show on tv you even get to see Mounties arresting the Zone baddies.

  • WatcherII

    So you don’t think if he left, or grabbed her and flew away with her the battle would have followed him where he went? You think there was just nothing he could do but to stay and contribute to the mounting destruction?

  • theduck0

    See, that’s where we disagree. I know Superman has killed in the comics (Zod in Superman v.2 issue 22, Doomsday in Superman 75, and Mr. Mxyzptlk in Action Comics 583), but here’s the thing: in each of those stories a) there was absolutely no other choice (and I’ve already shown that’s not true here and b) there were serious consequences (mental breakdown and exile into space, death, permanent loss of powers). In each case what Superman did served the story, both then and in the future. What did we get after Superman kills Zod in Man of Steel? A 30-second crying jag followed by a scene in which Superman trades quips with the military. No consequences, no advancement of the story. If you really think they showed “the emotional toll it took on him” then you’re as guilty as the people you’re berating of seeing things that weren’t shown in the movie. Ergo, my belief that, whether you agree or not, Mssrs. Nolan, Goyer and Snyder disrespected Superman.

    And do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

  • theduck0

    What is it about this board that leads people to be rude, boorish and crude? Just wondering…

    Hope you read my response to movieartman. I don’t count the movies – to me they’re not in any way canonical, and you can call me naive, but I never took the end of Superman II as showing Superman killing Zod and company – I always saw it as a defeat followed by some kind of imprisonment. But I’ve already addressed your other points regarding Doomsday and other times Superman has killed in the comics (and how is “sending [Doomsday] to the end of the Universe” killing him?). Again, read my response above.

    Recently Mark Waid did and AMA on Reddit, and I think he had it totally right when he said (I’m paraphrasing) that Superman is a character that you don’t put into a “kill or be killed” situation – he is, after all, fictional, and he is an ideal. Was Man of Steel “realistic”? Maybe, but why does it have to be? Why does everyone (including DC and Warner Brothers) insist on dragging him down?

    You may be happy with this incarnation of Superman – I cannot and will not accept it.

  • theduck0

    Me, maybe not. Superman? Absolutely.

  • monkeypants2230

    Emotional need? They just met! An embrace would have sufficed. They suck face twice and the lame talk about a kiss going down hill was cringe worthy in a moment that should have been heavy with sadness and maybe we could have seen the two of them try to see who was …dunno living? . They are not boyfriend/girlfriend or spouses reuniting etc. Their relationship is barely there even though they try to force Lois on us at every turn. How she even appeared after he kills Zod was ridiculous! Lois is a journalist and I’m sure she’s been in life and death situation before does she go around making out with her rescuers or story after she survives? It was more about forced romance bs that anything else as was forcing Lois into scenes that made no sense.

  • Dan Riedel

    Who’s to say Superman won’t grief in the next film?

    Especially when he encounters Batman?

    I think the fact he’s grieving could be a major reason why Batman wins in the end (because he will).

    Superman as I mentioned before, killed twice in Superman 3 and once again in Superman IV.

    Nolan was actually against the idea of killing Zod so viciously.

    I’m actually for Zod’s death be honest, I thought the neck-snapping was a cliched cop-out. He should’ve choked the life out of him after he realized a sleeper hold wouldn’t work :p

    Besides, keeping him alive wouldn’t serve any future plot unless he died at the hands of another alien.

  • josh john

    did you see the aftermath of their battle?? it looked someone dropped an atom bomb on the city! the whole city was LEVELED! i maybe exaggerating a little, but the damage was severe! the way you’re defending it, it sound like you’re actually thinking that no one got killed and everyone got out.

  • glantern35

    Superman could have used his own heat vision to blast the top of Zod’s head until he stopped or passed out. Just saying….

  • Zebowillis

    Dude in the Man of Steel series by John Byrne, Superman straight up executes Zod. Superman has killed. The whole idea that Superman doesn’t kill has no basis in literary fact.

  • Dan Riedel

    The very thing you want is the biggest problem with Superman – he’s never put in a situation where he can’t win. Life doesn’t work that way, there’s a crossroad in all of all lives where we have to make a choice we may not like – what makes us great is that we can often adapt and cope with the consequences.

    In response to the Doomsday discussion (Superman killed him the first time around too with the Super-punch, but they explained in later comics that Doomsday CAN’T be killed). Superman sent him to the end of the universe which IS sending someone off to his death. That’s like me grabbing your mom and throwing her off a building. Is it me killing her if I did that? I mean… someone could catch her? Technically it isn’t murder, but it IS murderous intent or malice – which is just as bad. That’s why we have laws for different degrees for murder and attempted murder.

    Superman left Doomsday to die… as did the George Reeves Superman when he put criminals on a mountain range with no way down for blackmailing him.

    And as I mentioned before, Clark killed Nuclear Man in Superman 4 and Faux-Brainiac in Superman 3, and choked the life out of the Evil Superman in Superman 3. How do you perceive those truths? Death is death man, you can’t sugar coat it.

    And as I mentioned before, he also killed the Cyborg Superman who was just as genocidal as Zod. They fought in an already destroyed city (Green Lantern’s home)… Superman didn’t HAVE to kill him, he could’ve used his Super-breath to freeze the Cyborg. But instead, he disembows him, punches him through the torso and then shatters him to pieces – destroying any remnant of his person. How do you explain that?

    The only reason why these folks come back later is because DC is looking for a quick win to make money. If these archs were stand-alone, Superman’s death toll would be QUITE high. That’s the difference between Batman and Superman. Bruce is subject to the law and Kal-L is ABOVE the law.

  • Todd

    It didn’t bother me that Superman killed Zod. So Superman killed Zod big deal. Ya he doesn’t kill in the comics, but Man of Steel is a movie. The Nolan trilogy Batman was the same as the comic one and everyone loved those movies.

  • penguintruth

    I don’t understand the controversy. A green Superman reacted in a moment’s notice to save people from a guy responsible for thousands of deaths already and he was obviously devastated by the choice he made.

    No jury in the entire world or beyond would ever, EVER convict him of anything untoward in the matter. This will have to be the exception that proves the rule.

    Plus, FFS, Superman totally killed the Kryptonians in Superman II. He shoved them off into oblivion.

  • gthorne

    so the writer created a situation where superman “had to” kill someone because he couldn’t think of another way.

    It’s happened before and it’s always a wrong step, a false note that fails to understand what the character is. Here’s a hint: he’s not a a soldier and he’s not a vigilante.

    On a side note: Why are you so angry?

  • Frank

    Yeah, I did. The way you’re describing it isn’t exaggerating it a little. The whole city was not leveled by their battle. The World Engine caused the damage that leveled a part of the city. Key word, part. You’re falsely claiming 95% of the damage on a battle that included a total of one building falling and another few having side damage. Kal-El and General Zod, during their battle after the World Engine was destroyed, flew throughout Metropolis where many other skyscrapers shown.

  • DaMak

    Actually he did. You’re referring to a cut that didn’t make it to theaters. And ANYONE can argue a special edit or a deleted scene or what was intended but never shot. But lets face facts. Superman didn’t lift up Zod and for a moment forgot he had Super Strength and accidently toss Zod. Zod got throwed acrossed a room, into a wall and fellto his death. And in the ORIGINAL film, he ddidn’t walk away from that. Any thing that came after that is no different than a comic book reboot of the same story.

    Need to come up with a better arguement than that buddy.

  • Frank

    I love how a few people downvoted this and will most likely continue to do so. How dare you make logical reasoning of the part of the movie on what I base my hatred on!

  • theduck0

    I understand your point, and don’t totally disagree – we could nit-pick over some things (the evil Superman in Superman III was part of Clark and was re-absorbed into him after the battle, and Doomsday is a mindless killing machine), but that’s not the point. Ultimately I don’t object to Superman killing if there’s really no other way, but I can’t accept Superman being dragged down to, say, my level. I expect Superman to be better than me, and you, and, well, everyone. It’s still possible to have that Superman in a more realistic setting. (And for what it’s worth, the killing of the Cyborg Superman always bothered me. It was gratuitous and unnecessary, and was a misstep in a story I otherwise enjoyed a lot.)

    My problem was that Man of Steel featured a Superman who gave no indication that he was the least bit concerned about people. In The Avengers we had scenes of Captain America and company rescuing civilians in the middle of the Battle of New York – where was one scene of Superman saving anyone in Metropolis? We were treated to a self-absorbed Superman, and that’s not what I expect. I expect a Hero (the capitalization is deliberate), not a regular guy who can fly. And ultimately the situation with Superman killing Zod was badly handled by the filmmakers, and that’s the worst part of this.

    And if Batman is “subject to the law”, why the heck isn’t he being pursued by Child Protective Services? (I kid…)

  • Mac Smith

    the circumstance was so contrived and lazy, though. If you are gonna go out of your way to make Superman kill someone, at least come up with a good reason. Not “I can’t stop him from turning his head a tiny bit when really he could just, you know look over at the people he is killing.” This after a pointless destruction of Metropolis where Superman could have just as easily fought him in space or a field. terrible movie.

  • wreckgar

    Here’s my better arguement – Actually he DIDN’T kill Zod in Superman II; that is something YOU are implying; even if it were cut from the “theatrical release” there’s still the footage of the zone criminals getting taken by authorities. Besides all that, IT JUST A MOVIE; it’s fiction, and it can always change. Who’s to say that Kryptonians can’t cheat death – evidently Superman did about 20 years ago. Just food for thought.

  • bobby buttons

    Superman should not kill, must not kill…it defeats the whole purpose of his character and trying to establish himself as the ‘ideal’ of the alien trying to show man that they can be better, that they can rise above it. Any punk with a gun can take a life, but that does not make him tougher or stronger or better than those he mows down….ask Batman.The true essence of a hero is that the easiest choice is not always, almost always, not the best choice. That’s why we love heroes…they rise above it and don’t settle for the easiest solution…as it should be in our lives. I’d love to stick a pencil in the eye of the douche that cut in front of me in BKing, but I’d rather think of a better way of dealing with douches and pass that better way around. Superman should be an ideal us, on a cosmic scale.

  • fearlubu

    RICK, PLS.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUORL-bvwA0

    oh yeah, lois kills too.

  • Guest

    That was just gratuitous murder, plain & simple, they should stop acting like there was a deeper cause behind it. Superman & Zod’s battle leveled the city definitely killing very many people. If Superman was that reckless with lives, why was this family suddenly important? Because it had a face? Not a very good hero who only sticks his neck out (or snaps a neck out) for visible victims but kills unseen masses.

    That said, even the death was unnecessary. He could have frozen Zod’s head or flown into the sky/space as he had his arms around Zod’s head/neck. He could even have put his hands in front of Zod’s eyes. All in all, ridiculous scene, I’m not buying the “justification.” Poor movie too.

  • Mel Man

    That was just gratuitous murder, plain & simple, they should stop acting like there was a deeper cause behind it. Superman & Zod’s battle leveled the city definitely killing very many people. If Superman was that reckless with lives, why was this family suddenly important? Because it had a face? Not a very good hero who only sticks his neck out (or snaps a neck out) for visible victims but kills unseen masses.

    That said, even the death was unnecessary. He could have frozen Zod’s head or flown into the sky/space as he had his arms around Zod’s head/neck. He could even have put his hands in front of Zod’s eyes. All in all, ridiculous scene, I’m not buying the “justification.” Superman tried killing and didn’t like it so he decides never to do it again… Yeah, that sounds like something he would do… Poor movie.

  • Mel Man

    So for someone to become infallible, he tried to kill, discovered he didn’t like it and decided not to do it again? I understand.

    If you do some reading on the character bibles of these heroes, you would discover that Superman should never be in that situation in the first place. He’s a symbol of hope who is never supposed to be written into a hopeless situation. Poor poor movie.

  • inshadowsunseen

    The problem with Superman killing someone is that it goes against the established identity of the character; you expect Wolverine to kill anyone, or Batman might choose not to ‘save you’. Is this how Superman solves all his problems? Why not just let him kill anyone who stands against him? If he did this in the comic book, no one but a handful of villains would be left that could stand against him. Killing someone is murder. Period. Once you cross that line, you can’t go back. You can’t be a role model, you can’t be a higher ideal, to anyone. He can still be a hero, but not the champion of life he once was.

  • kory stephens

    Open to interpretation, that. Try again.

  • Seth Wilson

    I agree, because in our society if someone murder a person there is fear that person will do it again, not I think he learned his lesson. But maybe that fear will fuel a future film storyline, I don’t know. But, Zod death seem forced, as soon as Zod said it was going to end in one of their deaths.

  • https://twitter.com/dnwilliams dnwilliams

    He can take a flying fuck at the moon if Goyer’s going to stick to him murdering villains.

  • Seth Wilson

    That my opinion, just like it’s your opinion that it worked in the film. I didn’t say I didn’t like it. Just for me it was easily foreshadowed when Zod said the fight wasn’t going to end unless he die or Superman die. And the Superman I’ve always known don’t let villians make his decision for him. The Superman I’ve known for the most part been stronger then presented in MOS and make his own choice, a third option.

  • https://twitter.com/dnwilliams dnwilliams

    In other words?

  • https://twitter.com/dnwilliams dnwilliams

    If you asked any of those people who were forced to kill whether they would have taken another option if one were available, I’m sure they’d say “yes”, otherwise there wouldn’t have been much forcing involved. You know what gives you more options? Being a fictional construct that represents man at its very best, like Superman.

  • CogInTheWheel

    Ugh, his opinion is that it was lazy and bad writing. Learn to take an opinion and grow up.

  • CogInTheWheel

    “Nothing on Earth can hold him”

    well since it’s a fictional world from a comic book and they seemed to have no problem giving batman a magical knee brace (same writer too) how about doing like comic books do and make up a piece of technology that can. Are people forgetting what the damn source material is?

    Maybe I’m wrong (barely remember most of the details) but wasnt Zod trying to bring back the kryptonians from some sort of hyper sleep thing…. almost like a prison that can’t be escaped from….

  • https://twitter.com/dnwilliams dnwilliams

    You think MoS was mature and complex? That’s cute.

  • Black Cesar

    Your Mom in law is a whore.

  • amp69

    True but the narrative in Man of Steel was set-up so that there wasn’t another option and as a viewer I liked the fact the hero knowing what this genocidal maniac is capable of doing took matters in his own hands and stopped him from causing any future destruction of human lives. Plus it’s a perfect setup for Lex Luthor to sow the seed of distrust among humans with regards to metahumans like the Man of Steel.

  • https://twitter.com/dnwilliams dnwilliams

    “the narrative in Man of Steel was set-up so that there wasn’t another option”

    Which is EXACTLY what people who are opposed to it take exception with. It serves no purpose. It’s counterintuitive when you’re working with a character that you acknowledge i your script as a beacon of hope and a paragon of righteousness. And Lex NEVER required ammunition of that nature to rationalise someone like Superman being a threat or a stymie. If he does use the fact that Superman is willing to play judge, jury and executioner on behalf of the human race, he’s perfectly justified in his reasoning, and that is a BAD thing. It’s not a good idea to have Superman, of all characters, do things that are morally grey, let alone the series of misdeeds MoS featured, capped off by murder.

  • amp69

    As someone who loves the world of comics, I understand your frustration and anger towards the way a character you clearly care a lot about was depicted in Man of Steel. That being said as a viewer of MofS this was the first time I actually related to Superman and I thought it was an enjoyable movie.

  • https://twitter.com/dnwilliams dnwilliams

    “this was the first time I actually related to Superman”

    This is also where a lot of the resentment stems from. This was very clearly aimed at people who disliked the character, thought the character could benefit from being murkier, or liked the character for very different reasons to most. It’s like if they made new Indiana Jones movies and he’s like “fuck museums, I’m selling this shit on the black market and getting RICH” – the majority of fans of the character would not be okay with this. Their discontent would be exacerbated by those who vocally supported it because it makes Indiana Jones “more human” or some such BS.

  • amp69

    But isn’t that your argument against a “darker’ Superman because you find him unrelatable because he doesn’t stand for “hope” ?

  • https://twitter.com/dnwilliams dnwilliams

    Not at all. There are plenty of characters that I guess you could say I relate too, that do pretty heinous, reprehensible shit. Superman isn’t one of them, but how relatable a character is is low on my list of priorities for appreciating them in any case. My problem is that they made this movie IN SPITE OF the character. That they wanted to make a morally grey disaster movie, and weren’t about to let something like the character of Superman get in the way of that. It’s a massive compromise for sensationalism’s sake, and it breaks the character, THAT is why I take issue with it. Mark Waid put it best, when he said “I don’t want Superman to be more like us, I want us to be more like Superman”.

  • amp69

    I can understand that – but as a fan of gritty superheroes I really enjoyed the movie.

  • https://twitter.com/dnwilliams dnwilliams

    Gritty is good, where it belongs. I like raspberry ripple ice cream. I like chocolate cake. I don’t want to get raspberry ripple ice cream, in a raspberry ice cream box, and wind up with chocolate cake that has a little bit of raspberry ripple ice cream on top. If I want chocolate cake, it’s out there.

  • DarthTigris

    He was put in a situation by writers that manufactured a situation where they present that he only had the one solution. That’s bad writing. Why?

    It’s clear they wanted Superman to kill Zod and wrote the story to create that scenario. It’s forced characterization and plot manipulation. All writer’s have to do it to a certain extent, but the good ones do not force it with large plot and character beats, only minor things. Even Christopher Nolan disagreed with this decision.

    I grew up a long time ago.

  • Liam Gray

    My personal preference was that I didn’t like the ending. I was left wondering “why didn’t he use his frost breath” or find another way. For me the pivotal thing about Superman isn’t that he “can’t” kill, like its some infallible law. Its that he “won’t” and can always find another (better) way. I think this entire ordeal was just a charade to make Superman “gritter” to fit in with modern cultural standards and preferences. I mean, why keep a character true to his roots when you can jump the shark and have a multitude of internet fanboys giving your film all this extra PR for free. At the end of the day, all we can do if we do not like it is not pay for it on DVD and not go to see the sequel. Unfortunately, we all want to see the sequel because its Superman/Batman.
    I just really wish that they had not abandoned the character’s principles, in trying to make him “edgier” they made the character less.

  • amp69

    I don’t clearly get your metaphor. Regardless I think Man of Steel presented a Superman in the kind of escapism that is more in line with world we live in.

  • Frank

    What’s it to you if that’s how I viewed it? Absolutely nothing. It’s cute that you made a completely pointless response based on your ignoramus tone.

  • Frank

    How does it go against the established identity of the character when they were creating it from the ground up? It doesn’t.

  • https://twitter.com/dnwilliams dnwilliams

    Fucking adorable.

  • DaMak

    What are you talking about? Half of your argument is most of mine…

  • DaMak

    But that see… that’s the problem. You’re statement would be accurate if someone followed a set of rules set by a character “bible”. You’re statement is false. You just reminded me that Superman, when he fought against Doomsday for the first time was put in a situation where he had no choice but to kill. And he did… but of course comicbook writers brought them back. But it doesn’t change the fact “he was place in a situation where he had to make a life or death decision” and chose to put him down.

  • Mel Man

    The Death of Superman was very controversial at the time. Superman has been a troubled hero in the comics with writers trying to find ways to scale down his powers because it made for less interesting writing with him being so powerful. The only way was to have someone as good if not better than him.

    The only reason they justified Superman killing Doomsday was in his own death. It was “the greatest sacrifice” on his part and it made as much sense as the scene in Independence Day when the president was fighting aliens and as he was about to be blasted a military plane flew between the president & the alien. He died in his last resort to protect humanity.
    That being said, the death of Superman was all done for shock-value due to sales & all that corporate BS. The only way Superman could die is if he succeeded in taking-down his killer as well so it’s not a “hopeless” sales stunt. Death of main characters is pretty useless in comics though cause they must come back. The book must go on eventually.

    You have to admit it was really not necessary in Man of Steel. I found the movie wanting in so many areas that it’s difficult to even give the benefit of doubt to the logic behind the bad decisions.

  • Mel Man

    True! The first murder is always the hardest. Once you get away with it, there will be more to come. The problem with saying that it will prepare other films is that I didn’t go to watch an experiment that will set up another film. I paid about $13 to watch a movie. Not an experiment or a test.

  • Happily LS

    Cops kill because they like to and because idiots like you idolize them and treat it like it’s ok.

  • Angrier Geek

    Nothing says “weak argument” more than needing to personally insult someone who disagrees with you. So thanks for proving me right.

  • amp69

    Take a pill!

  • ComicBook Coby

    There were so many other ways for them to have Superman handle Zod. I was shocked when he just snapped his neck. I really hope this doesn’t set the tone for the trilogy. If so, I’ll have to keep my kid from watching his hero until he’s at least in his teens.

    http://cobyscomics.blogspot.com/2013/06/superman-superman-superman.html

  • Batt Damon

    Because she was conveniently in every important scene and she somehow managed to make it to the train station faster than Supes did

  • Frankie Addiego

    And, of course, you ignore the point I made, which was that Superman’s hand isn’t “invulnerable” to heat vision.

    Also, you say “fanboy” like it’s a bad thing. I’d rather be a fanboy than a bizarro-hipster, douche bag.

  • Marcus

    Man of Steel was incoherent. Not deep or complex.
    It had terrible dialogues and an horrible script.
    The acting was okay though.

  • Marcus

    It’s a bird, it’s a plane
    Oh my god it’s coming right for us ! EVERYBODY RUN !

  • Marcus

    It’s the incoherencies in the movie that I resent, not ZOD’s killing.

  • Marcus

    You forgot Smallville.