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Marvel’s Quesada: Zod Was the Hero of ‘Man of Steel’

The decision makers at Warner Bros. were happy enough with Zack Snyder’s Man of Steel to give him the keys to their next two DC Comics-based movies, including the just-announced Justice League. A major figure across the aisle, however, isn’t as pleased with the director’s work.

Joe Quesada, chief creative officer at Marvel Entertainment, appeared on the Fatman on Batman podcast to discuss a wide range of topics, including the big-screen efforts of his Distinguished Competition. There, Quesada made it clear that he isn’t a fan of Man of Steel, saying the film left him feeling “angry.”

“As a comic book fan, I wanted to love that movie so much,” he said. “I wanted to love it so much, and I didn’t love it so much. Again, there are little things here and there that you could pick at and things like that, but I just think at the end of the day, Zod was the hero of the movie to me.”

“He wanted to save his race, and Superman didn’t let him,” Quesada continued. “Zod, in this particular incarnation, struck me as not necessarily an evil man, but a man of … he had a particular … he had his orders, he had a mission. He was a zealot of sorts, but he was a zealot … again, correct me if I’m wrong  … but he didn’t say, ‘I want to rebuild Krypton,’ and then come back and destroy this little planet. ‘All I want is to rebuild this planet. And the only reason I’m blowing everything to bits here is because you’ve got what I want, and you’re not giving it to me. So please, give me my people, and I’ll leave.’”

Snyder and DC have at least two more opportunities to impress Quesada, with the Man of Steel sequel arriving in May 2016, and Justice League, rumored for release the following year.

(via ComicBook.com)

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Comments

  • Chap

    Joe Quesada. Are you kidding me?

  • savitar

    You know… except for the whole field filled with human skulls swallowing Clark as Zod said he needed something to build /on/. *gestures at Earth*

    Bravo.

  • Mark_S

    This from the guy who destroyed Spider-Man for me and with the civil war storyline got me to stop collecting marvel comics.

  • Chap

    So Quesada was rooting for the guy who wanted to kill EVERYONE on Earth to replace the population with a caste-system that guy was going to design and over which he would reign. I don’t know Quesada personally, but that’s effed-up. Quesada seems to be spewing the same talking points that both Bendis and Fraction dished out on the Word Balloon podcast.

  • Banon

    Honestly, and I can’t say I even like Quesada, but I have to agree. By default, Zod was a far more sympathetic character than the “Krytpon had it’s chance” Superman. Superman should have found some way to save his people, rather than consign them all to oblivion. The “real” Superman would have put them on a different planet, maybe one with a red sun.

  • Dave

    Quesada is a moron and obviously shilling for Marvel. The guy doesn’t like Superman characters or sci-fi stuff as it is.

  • MegaGearMax

    Joey Q doesn’t have a handle on Marvel HEROES, let alone DC villains. Terrorist Cyclops who kills Professor X, killer Wolverine as an Avenger and Iron Man trying to arrest all of his friends and allies.

  • Tomi Hanzek

    People try too hard to hate on Man of Steel.

  • Michael Pullmann

    I really don’t know why nobody in the movie thought of just offering Zod Mars to terraform – er, Kryptoniform.

  • Jimmy Russell

    why does superman have to be a straight white male?

  • Conner Garry Sennett

    There’s no real Superman. Just a slew of different interpretations of the character.

  • Mike

    Woah Woah… Cyclops didn’t kill Professor X. That was the Phoenix… let’s not get crazy here.

  • Jayson Andrew Smith

    I agree with Joe on all points.

  • Jimmu Kaye

    Why not?

  • http://pulpwarsaw.tumblr.com Jakub Górecki

    yeah, and man who saved Marvel while he was main force behind Marvel Knights imprint

  • KamiShadow

    Superman mentions several times he does not want to harm Zod and that Zod can join him and live on the planet. Zod insisted on destroying it to “rebuild krypton” and destroyed worlds before. I sure hope this interview segment was taken out of context…..

  • percane

    i think zod was still a bad guy BUT the best bad guys have understandable motivation. like magneto was twisted by his experience as a victim of the nazis. that speech zod gives about how superman took away the meaning of his existence did make him sympathetic

  • http://barryvevans.wordpress.com Barry V. Evans

    I think Joe Q needs to watch it again. He doesn’t seem to have understood that Zod was planning to kill the entire human race to bring back Krypton.

  • Michael Alan

    Yes, Zod wanted to save his race, but at the expense of terminating another entire race with mass genocide. No, he’s not the hero.

  • MegaGearMax

    I concede that point. Just not a fan of Summer’s “I’ll do ANYTHING to survive” personality change.

  • Elvis Fonzarelli

    Because thats how he was written. Why does Hedwig have to be a gay, post-op Transgender?

  • Richard Casey

    Amazing how people still bitch about stuff he’s done in the past as if that somehow means he’s wrong. He isn’t. Man of Steel’s script lacked any real hero, the closest we got WAS Zod, who simply wanted to ressurect his species. Superman was the one refusing to let it happen. Why? Did he give a shit about humanity? Not in any way the film showed us, the reason Superman saved humanity was because him not saving the world would have been a terrible ending. Sure, Zod was gonna use earth as New Krypton, but if Superman hadn’t been such a dick about everything and said, “yeah, okay. You can have the codex, just leave Earth alone” instead of just getting into a punching competition, it probably would have worked out.

    Saying Superman is the hero of the movie is a joke. He cares about saving people? yeah, okay. I guess we’re just overlooking the hundreds of thousands of people who would have died from the fall out of his dick measuring contest alone.

  • Alex H

    Not really, I don’t “hate” it, but I did find it boring and missing the point in the character.

  • neonrideraryeh

    Mephisto is my hero too. <3 He only wanted to destroy a marriage and in the end, isn't that a wonderful romantic thing?… Wait, it's not wonderful? Ummm.. never mind then, carry on.

  • Mike McTighe

    Zod’s motivations to me were confused. He just screamed all the time, and his plan ranks up there on the same level of stupidity as Shaw’s in First Class and Luthor’s in SR. Just never made any sense, other than some plot device to blow things up. Also they inadvertently turned Jor-El into a d*** by conveniently leavings the boys mom off his codec. Then deliberately turned Pa Kent into a suicidal d***. And subtly turned Superman into a d*** by choosing the clearly most violent solution to every problem. Also they destroyed Metropolis and everyone treated it like some regular crazy Saturday. Also Lois Lane has to be retarded. I don’t mean retarded in the insulting way; I mean I seriously think she had to be born with a defective brain since she couldn’t figure out the identity of the most obvious Superman to date. And OMG the explanation for the ‘S’ was the dumbest thing ever. I’m surprised Henry Cavill and Amy Adams did not say “are we really delivering these lines. C’mon, this is like bad Aaron Sorkin dialogue”.

  • http://fonik.tumblr.com shags

    Did Quesada really miss the part of the movie where Zod released those “world engine” machines to terraform the Earth into a new Krypton thereby killing all humans?

  • Richard Casey

    Yeaaaah, he isn’t actually in charge of the comics side of Marvel anymore. Hasn’t been for quite a few years. But don’t let something as incponsequential as facts get in the way of your irrational, bandwagon hating of someone you know literally nothing about.

  • PaulL

    IDK what Zod he saw, but the Zod I saw in MoS was a one-dimensional psychopath who did every cliched thing short of frothing at the mouth.

  • http://www.t3gtech.com Cerebro

    You’re right, no other Avenger ever has killed anyone ever. Also “Posessed” is more the term for the Cyclops that killed Xavier, and Bendis orchestrated the Iron Man thing. So. Yea.

  • Brent

    Incredible. Just like Hitler only wanted to perfect the human race, but The Brits, Canadians and Americans wouldn’t let him!

  • John

    Then you are a fool and must also be blind, because he had more motivation and depth than any of the cookie-cutter nonsense we’ve usually seen from both Marvel and DC.

  • Matt Thompson

    Don’t have to try. It’s a bad movie.

  • PaulL

    Wow, angry much? No need for personal insults. I am neither.

  • Jeremy Musial

    So this means Joe is ok with Zod wiping out the human race to save his? Zod clearly wasn’t going to listen to reason or be civil about it. I have a lot of respect for Joe Q. but this is just a dumb statement all around… did he fall asleep during the movie at some point?

  • Mike McTighe

    “Hey let me go consult a priest because their bound to silence and I haven’t met any ghost holograms recently that could provide me with any information about how to deal with Zod without killing millions of people”

  • Jason

    I agree with Quesada. If you look at it solely from Zod’s point of view, he genuinely loves his people and wants them to continue to live on. Taken as a whole, of course Zod’s a nut. Villains never think they’re crazy as they tend to operate on their own set of principles that they abide by.
    I hated the film and wanted to love it but couldn’t stand any of it, especially the ending. Cavill was cast fine. I just felt the story lacked the depth, logic or interest. This film was right to not call itself SUPERMAN because it doesn’t deserve that title. It reminded me of TRANSFORMERS: crap plots and all noisy action without heft (other than Superman snapping a neck. That surprised and disappointed me).

  • Nate

    Wait…Harry Potter’s owl was transgendered?!? ;)

  • http://www.drewtos.tumblr.com/ Drewtos

    I just heard this not too long ago and while I agree Man of Steel has its faults, this interpretation was just weird. I think Quesada needs to watch it again. Zod not only wanted the codex to rebuild Krypton but he also wanted to use Earth as its foundation killing an entire race.. Quesada must have missed that.

  • Steven Simmons

    You stopped reading with Civil War? That’s funny…

  • Diarmuid Glass

    Zod was cool, no doubts. However, trying to eliminate the whole race, even because you want to save your own, is not the way of hero. Antihero yes, exactly. So we can not call Zod classic evil character. But not a hero, no way.

  • Steven Simmons

    He was making a commentary on the fact that Superman isn’t so much a hero in that film as he’s just angry the whole time.

  • Steven Simmons

    So you don’t like Bendis then, right? Because that’s Bendis…

  • Shokdiesel

    The movie makers can’t even make a good story with the traditional straight white male version, and you want to challenge that? I’m not sure what this has to do with anything, but I’m not sure you know what you’re asking for….

  • NICK FURY

    I LEARNED IN THIS BUSINESS YOU HAVE TO OVERLOOK THESE CRITICS, BECAUSE MOST HAVE OTHER MOTIVES TO THEIR CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM. LIKE JOE QUESADA IS WITH MARVEL SO YOU KNOW HE GONNA BE CRITICAL OF ALMOST ANYTHING DC PUTS OUT. THEN LOOK AT THIS ALSO ITS SUPERMAN WHO HE BEING CRITICAL AT. SUPERMAN WILL NEVER HAVE THE FULL SUPPORT BECAUSE HE IS NOT CONSIDERED COOL TO PEOPLE LIKE JOE. ALL THESE CRITICS HAVE AGENDAS.

  • Steven Simmons

    its an OK movie. He didn’t say it was a bad movie or that he hated it, only he couldn’t fall in love with it. I agree with him.

  • John

    So genius, what was he supposed to do? It was WAR, and as such people would be killed during it. Zod wouldn’t stop. His goal was the eradication of mankind in favour of a new Krypton (and in case you missed it, he was doing so to punish the lineage of Jor El, and wouldn’t have shifted to some other magical planet as you seemed to think was possible). SO I guess a few thousand are worth more than a few billion? Did the Allies call Europe and ask Hitler to move all the civilians OUT so we could head over there and make Hitler leave? 50 million civilians died during WWII.
    There was little Superman COULD do, and that was the goddamn point.

  • Steven Simmons

    Why do people need to worry about it? Why can’t there be a new, cool superhero who isn’t a straight white male? Why, in the interest of being politically correct assholes, do people need to change things to fit their image?

  • Shokdiesel

    That’s not a fair comparison. Hedwig’s character is based on being Transgender. You can do a female version of Superman and it would still retain what makes the character special, if written properly.

  • Steven Simmons

    Living on earth wouldn’t save or bring back the Kryptonians…that’s his mission and he cannot deviate from it. He’s literally compelled to do what he does genetically and mentally.

  • SwagMeOutHoe

    What are you talking about? Lois figured out who Clark was by the beginning of the second quarter of the movie. Did you not see her track down the leads from the military base in Canada to the diner to Pete Ross in Smallville and eventually to his house? I’d say she was smarter than any other Lois that’s ever been shown in a movie. And the explanation for the “S” meaning hope was first given by Mark Waid’s “Superman: Birthright” series, a book that was made canon until 2009’s “Superman: Secret Origin.” That book was widely popular, so what exactly are you talking about when you say it was dumb dialogue?

  • MegaGearMax

    Hey, no need for insults. As the Chief Creative Officer, doesn’t he okay these storylines or is that Bendis too?

  • Andrew Breneman

    I dislike Quesada on many levels, and I do not agree with his view on Zod, that said, I do agree on his view that MoS was not a particularly good Superman movie.

  • ZachKaz

    Inside voice, Mr. Fury.

  • Gomez Pants

    Zod didn’t have orders, he was a criminal. He was trying to kill Earth, and start another FAILED kyrpton. Zod had to die.

  • John

    The “real” Superman is a bore, and rarely is he faced with any real decisions. This film actually gave the whole process dimension instead of “Superman would find a way for everyone to be happy and live in a world of kittens and rainbows”.

  • MegaGearMax

    Avengers had a problem with killing back in the day. The ending to Operation Galactic Storm was an issue. Cap and Hawkeye had a problem with Wolverine until the modern comics.

  • Elvis Fonzarelli

    Oh…. you mean like Wonder Woman?

  • Gomez Pants

    Right! Superma doesn’t kill because of the comics authority code.

  • http://drewmelbourne.com/ Drew Melbourne

    He’s a Colonel! Show some respect!

  • Colt Chenault

    If Joe could he’d remake the movie and call it Superman: One More Day.

  • Jordan T. Maxwell

    Well, he was going to build New Krypton on the terraformed husk and broken bones of Earth and humanity…but yeah, sure, totally the hero…:p

  • Colt Chenault

    Agreed. I don’t need a black/lesbian/asian/trans Superman, but I’d be more than happy to see a new hero emerge with any of those traits.

  • Watsonian

    Joe Q . . . troll hard.

    I mean, let’s be real. Making the villain somewhat gray as opposed to black/white is a good thing.

  • Watsonian

    Except all those examples of when he does kill.

    Like when he kills Zod. Twice.

  • Alex H

    Well, the “man” bit is kind of built into the name, and making him gay would also mean altering his supporting cast (Louis Lane? Larry Lang?) which might get convoluted. Making him non-white though actually could work well with the theme of him being an immigrant who embraces the American way etc.

  • Colt Chenault

    I think people want old school comic books where everybody lives…

    Because when the hero always saves everybody it’s a compelling story, and totally leaves future movies open where he….. saves everybody again.

  • John

    Where is everyone in taking Marvel to task over the civilian deaths in The Avengers? Hey Joe, what about all the people that would have died when Thor brought down those two Chitauri ships? Or the one Tony blows up? Or any of the chaos caused by the actions of The Avengers in fighting off the invading force? Because I am willing to bet there would have been more civilian casualties in that film…

  • powerfan90

    this is the same man who didn’t understand why people were so upset with one more day having the devil in it fixing the problem.

  • Colt Chenault

    I think he may have frothed at the mouth too…

  • Colt Chenault

    He loves his people so much he was killing them off in droves and taking over Krypton while it was being destroyed. Yup. Loves dem peeples.

  • John

    And Doomsday.

  • Mud

    So I suppose that means you think letting Zod eliminate the human race was a better idea?

  • Mike Clifford

    Exactly what I was going to say.

  • Colt Chenault

    I bet he watches it nightly in his house with the lights off and the sound down low so nobody else knows.

  • Man of Steel

    Quesada is shaking in his boots…lol

  • James Veber

    I think hero might be the wrong word, but I kind of agree that Zod had more reason and to do what he did than anyone else in the movie. The whole thing was just a cluster **** for me with huge plot wholes and a Superman who was too far from the ideal of the character, but that has more to do with taste.

  • Man of Steel

    Just hating….

  • Mike Clifford

    He could at least try.

  • James Veber

    Seriously, with all the other liberties they took.

  • http://www.thenerdavenger.com/ Kane Bunce

    Quesada, did you miss the blantly obvious part where he wanted to initiate force by murdering billions of innocents?

    But then why am I not surprised that the guy that dictated that One More Day happen is so stupid? :-P

  • James Veber

    Superman also doesn’t snap people’s necks or let his dad get killed for no reason by a tornado so your argument lacks a bit of weight.

  • jgraff

    That is such a misread of those characters that I doubt even the MOS internet haters will be able to get behind it.

  • James Veber

    now that is a good argument

  • James Veber

    Honestly, I might have liked MOS if it wasn’t a superman movie. You never have to mention Superman and you get that it would be an interesting take on that character and his origins. But once you call it Superman and say this is what we are basing our movie universe on I lose interest because it wasn’t Superman to me.

  • Mark_S

    I got tired of trying to tell the difference between a marvel good guy and a marvel bad guy. Once the government put Norman Osborn in charge of national security and all the SHIELD agents got new uniforms and became HYDRA agents I figured I’d stop reading until some sort of morality was established in the mu and the heroes stopped being villains. As was screamed at me here often enough ‘if you don’t like it, don’t buy it, now shut up and go away.’

  • malexandria

    dont need to try….

  • Mark_S

    I don’t recall that being an option for him.

  • Jenoo

    Just because it’s canon doesn’t make it good. And even if you think that the whole “S means hope” thing is a good idea, it doesn’t change the fact that the dialogue could be bad.

  • Elvis Fonzarelli

    All these people that complain about not enough female or minority characters…. its your fault. DC released a Wonder Woman animated movie…. almost no one bought it. Its their worst selling animated title. Northstar had his own mini series…. no one bought it. Static was brought back in the New 52….. no one bought it and it was canceled.
    If you want these diverse characters, you have to support them, not demand that existing ones that have worked extremely well as they are for 75 years suddenly be changed to appease you.

  • pharoahe22

    Let’s be realistic: The Avengers had the freaking Black Widow on the team before they even thought about bringing Wolverine on. The Black Widow. Even Wolverine has talked about how impressive of a killer she is. And they also had War Machine, Moon Knight, Thor, Hercules (who was said to have killed about 10,000 men in his lifetime), etc etc. I think at least half of the Avengers roster had killed more than one person before Wolverine came on board. That stance was always hypocritical…because it’s like “We’ll give the killers that we’re more familiar with a pass”.

  • Mark_S

    It is always possible of course that JQ merely said this to get fans angry and shouting at each other again. He’s good at that. MoS needed some script work and I didn’t really like it, but calling Zod the hero is a bit like calling the Tazmanian Devil the hero and Bugs the villain.

  • MegaGearMax

    IIRC, Wonder Woman was eventually their fourth best selling title. The issue is that it didn’t get to fourth place fast enough.

  • LightningBug

    Relax everyone. Quesada is just trolling you. His overarching point still holds though: Man of Steel wasn’t very good.

  • Alex

    IT’s not the best movie I ever saw. But I thought it was pretty clear, that the Kryptonian species as it was, was doomed. The only way for it to live on in any way was to have a natural birth and send him away to help the people of Earth become better people. I thought that was pretty clear to me. You can’t make you place better at the expense of others.

  • http://www.thenerdavenger.com/ Kane Bunce

    Yeah I hated Civil War, especially for its treatment of Captain America and Iron Man.

  • Popper Most

    honestly I didn’t notice, I was looking at Henry Cavill the whole time

  • Alex

    I thought the Unmasking was the worst thing I’d ever seen in a comic book. Seriously. Eventually I realized I could never read Spider-man again. It’s was just to awful.

  • Tyler Giering

    This man pushed One More Day. Shut the hell up.

  • LeVar

    Zod was a sympathetic villain, a hero in his own mind.

  • KamiShadow

    Even if true, that still makes him the enemy. When he helps destroy Earth, he moves to another planet no matter what happens. Superman put an end to it, but to say Superman never offered to “help” would be absurd. He clearly did multiple times, right down to the end of Zod he kept yelling “please don’t make me do this.”

    Technically speaking, Superman is a Kryptonian so Zod killing one of the few people he has left to protect already goes against his “code” so that could say that the code could be broken.

  • MegaGearMax

    Agreed on certain points. I thought the whole point of wearing the mask was to protect Aunt May and Mary Jane from his legions of enemies that he;s made over the years. As soon as he unmasked, it was open season on them.

  • Travis

    In the Avengers, the first thing Captain America does is organize an evacuation of the designated “battle zone.” He and Black Widow stay on the ground to help with the evacuation and he puts Iron Man in charge of keeping the Chitauri within that area.

    Unlike Superman, who made no attempt to keep Zod away from the population and trashed half of Metropolis in their dick measuring contest, The Avengers did everything possible to contain the invading force to a centralized location, keeping the fight away from as many civilians as possible.

  • Elvis Fonzarelli

    Superman killed Zod in the comics and in Superman II, even if they didnt show it. But if your dropped down a pit in an arctic mansion with no ladder, rope or superpowers….. youll die.

    And though you may not have liked it, or agreed with it…. there was a reason he didnt save his father.

    So whose argument now lacks what?

  • http://www.t3gtech.com Cerebro

    Captain America is a soldier. If you’re unaware, soldiers do their fair share of killing, especially during WWII (See: Upwards of 5.5 MILLION Reich deaths during WWII). Widow is a KGB trained assassin and S.H.I.E.L.D. top-level agent. Moon Knight. Spider-Woman (Jones). Tony Stark made his fortune off producing weapons of war. Wolverine is just the latest in a list of sketchy characters. The only reason we’re just recently touching base with the “realities” of killing is that during the 50s Congress forced the industry to castrate their characters (figruatively) and make them family-friendly. Subsequently, a lot of kids grew up with “do no wrong” heroes, and thus going into the 70s, you had a lot of cheeseball. Getting into the 80s, you saw more realistic topics touched on (drugs, gun violence), and heading into the 90s, the Politically Correct movement forced all the violence to be superhuman, alien, and otherworldly, (even Wolverine fought Galactus), to deter from realistic portrayals of human violence, for fear of it being taken the wrong way.

  • http://www.thenerdavenger.com/ Kane Bunce

    Anger does not make one hot a hero, especially if one has damn good reason to be angry. Zod’s actions count as a damn good reason.

  • glantern35

    Joe Queseda has spent his career doing everything in his power to destroy every other publisher. His opinion means nothing because he’d lie through his teeth to make DC look bad. Even if he was being completely honest, there’s no way I would believe a word that comes out of his lying mouth.

  • John

    Oh please. It’s Manhattan, good luck keeping 1.5 million people out of “the battle zone” on an island that size. That’s a sad attempt to brush off what would ultimately result in civilian casualties. It’s also a typical comic cop-out. “Hey, we moved 1 million people instantly out of home and office so no one is getting hurt, mmmkay?” I guess grandpa dropping bombs during WWII and killing German civilians was part of a big “dick measuring contest”, right?

  • Elvis Fonzarelli

    I dont follow you….. Wonder Woman has also been around for over 70 years, and is still released. The comic isnt the issue. Its other media that no one seems to be interested in when it comes to her.

    Not me, personally. I have comics and the aforementioned animated movie.

  • http://www.thenerdavenger.com/ Kane Bunce

    Superman in the comics tries to improve the world and humanity to have a brighter future, but he never gets far. The DCU (and MCU) is actually a rather dark place to live what with how much whole cities or the whole world is under threat.

    And the movie touched on his goal to lift humanity up. That is what Jor-El was trying to teach him when he talked about humanity joining Superman in the sun.

  • Ryan Colson

    needs all star in his life.

  • Mark_S

    Back when she was put on the retcon of her being a killer hadn’t been in place.

  • Mark_S

    Cap and crew were facing an army coming at them from one point, trying to keep that from spreading was a good battle plan until they could come up with something else, Superman was facing warships that could be anywhere on the planet and were attacking two places at once. there is no parallel between the two situations.

  • John

    The more he tried to do something as futile as what has been suggested here, the more innocent people WOULD have died.

  • Mark_S

    No, but he’s probably laughing at all of us.

  • Christopher Jensen

    Except that he DIDN’T say “Give me my people and then I’ll leave.” What he said was “Give me my people and then I’ll slaughter all of yours.”

  • Trace Stevens

    I really liked Man of Steel but agree with him to a point. A “good villian” is one that you can sympathize with and agree with some of his points. Zod was such a villain. He was bred for 1 thing and that was a noble Raison d’être. Now Superman’s reason for denying Zod was even better but Zod’s motives were pure and understandable. Granted he was a Zealot willing to sacrifice the earth. Like Iago’s jealousy, Brutus’ anger and Magneto’s rage. Readers understand why they do what they do and can rationalize their actions.

  • damien

    Lol what a dumbass! Clearly this guy didn’t pay attention to the movie he was watching!

  • Mark_S

    Yea, but for the story to work he had to be an idiot.

  • Kaizokuman

    The Martians wouldn’t look too kindly on that.

  • NinjinSteve

    Quesada seems a little confused here. That said… Man of Steel was still a lame movie. Just for different reasons.

  • me

    Remember all the destruction in Man of Steel?
    Well now imagine the while justice league..

  • Johnny

    I don’t know how Joe Q has any room to criticize anyone else about anything. Just saying.

  • Ryan Colson

    Bad writing is the reason. A few years ago some movie had Spider Man save a train of people. They did not tell. If Clark saved his Pa -who was saving a dog no less- it would have instantly been a better film in context of the character. Instead, you got a destructive, angry Superman, and it sucked.

  • Ryan Colson

    I will also say he had no choice in the Zod sequence, but tge tornado? CRAP

  • John

    I love the idea behind Superman, that he is an example for humanity to look up to, and to pull ourselves out of the swamp by our own bootstraps and move the human race forward. He’s there to deal with the big threats, the asteroids and super-beings bent on destroying our world. However, an infallible Superman, a Superman who never has to choose who lives and who dies, is a boring one to me.

    I love that he works towards better and brighter things, but there has to be some semblance of real consequence in his stories and some real-life decisions and scenarios. It was pretty obvious that Kal El didn’t want to have to kill Zod, but it was a decision and he made his choice and will have to live with it.

    That coupled with the obvious deaths of civilians in what was basically a war, means that his decision-making will be affected by the events in this film.

  • Underground Anthem TX

    “Also Lois Lane has to be retarded. I don’t mean retarded in the insulting way; I mean I seriously think she had to be born with a defective brain…”
    Um, “INSULTING” is the ONLY way to describe that statement. Sheesh.

  • Kaizokuman

    ” No, I don’t need a human perspective on something I need to do for humans.” Also millions? It was said to be thousands. Does it really matter how many people died in a movie?

  • Elvis Fonzarelli

    Best Pa Kent death ever was John Schnieder.

    I’ll conceded on the tornado, but destructive Superman? It was his first time out of the gate. He had to fight at least 5 of them with equal powers. He didnt destroy the city, he tried to protect it. His lack of experience was costly, sure…. but also keep in mind that destruction is probably going to be a huge reason to set up Luthor as a bad guy, and Batmans inclusion in the sequel. Guaranteed that destruction will be a plot point.

  • Asura

    There are several criticisms of historical, philosophical, sociological, political and geopolitical basement that could be made about Superman and Captain America but this speech of Joe Quesada was the most stupid! It’s the same as saying that Hitler was the hero of the interwar period (1919 – 1939) and World War. It’s the same as saying that Hitler just wanted to build an ideal society and, to achieve such a feat, millions of people should perish – through genocide. This is absurd! Imagine, in the Marvel Universe, one stating that the “revolutionaries” of HYDRA are heroes. They just want to build a New World Order by exterminating millions of people. You see, that should be something about comics and sci-fi but just imagine when someone that crazy enough becomes a president, a chancellor, an emperor…?

  • Topher

    Um, (Mostly marvel Fan here) Maybe if Zod wasn’t trying to use the Earth as the foundation for his new planet, but something else, far away, then he could be seen as the hero, and the above nonsense would be accurate.

  • Andahaion

    Wanted to save his race…at the expense of another. Not very heroic. Any other argument to support that thesis?

  • Ripshot de la Culebra

    One mans hero is another mans terrorist. Not all bad guys are actually bad but merely guys on opposing views. Its all on your perspective and the movie did a great job of capturing that. Superman had to make a hard decision and I thought it all played well into a great movie.

  • Underground Anthem TX

    Apparently, for a Marvel movie the answer is “No”, and for a DC movie the answer is “Yes”.

  • Brian from Canada

    Of course Zod is the hero to Quesada: he wanted to destroy Superman! No Superman leaves plenty of room to make Metropolis Marvel’s. ;-)

    If there’s one thing Quesada needs to do is shut up about the competition. He blew up the civility between the two publishers when he insulted DC over Smallville in Mar-Ville, and his Marvel has not said ONE thing nice about the “distinguished competition” since then,

  • Ripshot de la Culebra

    I havent exactly liked any of yhe marvel movies except for that last Spider-Man and the Blade trilogy. I still have to see the new Cap.

  • Madcap2112

    Um, did he watch the movie?

  • http://rocketboy1313.blogspot.com/ Rocketboy1313

    Fuck you Joe Q. Why don’t you make a deal with the devil to undo it?

  • Andrew Kilian

    I think you missed the point of that series. Putting villains in authority and heroes on the run made for one of the most interesting storylines in decades. Also as a reflection of the Bush administration it was excellent social and political commentary. The morality was intact, it was just that the villains were winning for once which is more compelling than having the superheros beat them in 22 pages. Watching the heroes struggle, on the lam, doing what was right despite being enemies of the state. Sort of how Luke, Leia and Han were rebelling against The Empire. Or was the original trilogy an unestablished morality?

  • James Veber

    Oh, fine. We will play it like that. Yours still lacks weight (that is the feeling of heaviness of an object but I am using it metaphorically hear to imply that you argument is perhaps not the best one that you could use) because my argument was not that the story tellers could not change things or that they did not have a reason but in fact the opposite.
    The reason to make Superman a gay, cross-dressing, black man would be to highlight he alienation of someone who clearly Does not fit in. That was pretty much the theme of the movie. Superman not only has to hide his alien tendencies but also his sexual orientation and love of dresses because of his father who has very strange and slightly alarming views on being an alien and cross dressing and homosexuality. Towards the middle of the film he finally meets his “real” father who assures him that on the enlightened Krypton that homosexuality is no big deal and that Jor-El himself often wore women’s clothes. In fact, He made his son a suit based on the sexier women’s fashions of their home planet for his “coming out.”
    Thus Superman gets to go out and be his gay, cross dressing self but also come home and put on a suit and go to work and not talk about being gay, not because he isn’t gay but because he doesn’t need to “be gay” all the time.

    Damn, I wish they had made that movie now.
    But you are right about the Zod stuuf, just the way they filmed it it really did not seem all that necessary for Supes to snap his neck. There were many ways he could have dealt with that other than killing Zod. Also in re-watching the scene Superman snaps Zod’s neck toward the family so they really should have died anyway.

  • MegaGearMax

    I was talking only about the animated movie’s sales, Elvis. IIRC, Wonder Woman technically did do well (it places 4th as far as highest sellers), but it didn’t make enough money fast enough. Green Lantern suffered similar problems, which is why WB only focuses it’s DVDs on Batman, Superman and Justice League marketing now.

  • C4darkmane

    Personally i loved CivilWar, it was OMD/BND that screwed it for me, why not just let aunt may die and have peter move on, but nooo he went of and made a deal with the devil and he didnt even get a flaming skull.

  • C4darkmane

    he thought he was doing the right thing and as per spidey logic whenever he cocks up he cocks up big and gets another reminder of great power and responsibility and they should have let May Die and then find another way to cover up his identity again if they really had to

  • Elvis Fonzarelli

    First of all…. I’m well aware of what “hold weight” means. If being condescending is all you can bring to the table here, you need to reassess your preparedness.

    Second, Are you serious with that outline? Please tell me youre not serious. That storyline is okay by you, but MoS wasnt? Id rather watch “Steel” on a continuous loop than watch what you just described.

    And please…. lets leave the nitpicking to conversations had on Convention floors in million of parental basements all over the country. Youre siting an editing error to reinforce your point of view?

  • Elvis Fonzarelli

    Which is the same mistake theyre making with live action.

    My point was, these gay, black, lesbian, minority characters are out there and given a shot, but no one supports them. Then the people who didnt support those characters complain about a lack of diversity in the medium.

  • Underground Anthem TX

    I would also submit the latest Captain America movie– Cap N’ Friends great idea is to crash the three Helicarrier/Drone things INTO EACH OTHER and into the ground, where civilians HAD to have been. Where do those deeds fall on the heroic scale?

  • Alick Warnick

    What movie was he watching because I saw man of steel I don’t know what he saw he must have missed the parts where they were increasing earths gravity it would have killed everyone on earth if they continued.

  • Travis

    The operative word is “try.”

    The Avengers made an effort to keep the battle to a limited area and get as many civilians as possible to safety.

    “Superman” made no such attempt. In fact, on multiple occasions he directs the battle TOWARDS higher populated areas.
    When he picks his first fight with the Kyrptonians, he takes them from his farm directly to Smallville. It’s not even an accident. He could have approached from literally any other direction and missed Smallville by miles. It’s the midwest. There’s a whole lot of nothing between cities. Instead, he bullseyes his home town.

    And then against Zod they take the battle into orbit. Superman could have brought the fight down to literally anywhere on half the planet from that point. Where does he go? Back to Metropolis.

  • Guest

    Id love to continue this debate, but my original comments, which were in no way offensive, were deleted for having the words “gay” and “Transgender”.

    So fuck this site, and fuck this conversation.

    There…. now you ultra sensitive, PC pricks have a reason to delete my comment.

  • Andrew

    But .. isn’t that the entire point? That is, .. “morality” is a thing that means different things to different people. “Morality” to The Punisher is different than “morality” to Spider-Man. The reason that Marvel is different than what D.C. was (at the time of conception) was that Marvel was very ambiguous when it came to morality. Character’s struggled with what was right and what was wrong and even heroes would have conflicted feelings.

    If you want a comic that has no greys and makes the entire world have a black and white morality pattern, you’ll have to stop reading Marvel (or even D.C. at this point) .. and you’ll have to go back in time and stop your past self, too. Questionable morality is, and always has been, a staple of Marvel.

  • Adam L

    yeah and why does Mickey Mouse have to be a bisexual anthropomorphic mouse?

  • Elvis Fonzarelli

    ??

  • MegaGearMax

    Didn’t I hear that the Helicarriers crashed into the Potomac?

  • Superman

    I never thought the day would come where I’d agree with Joe Quesada, but since it’s on a DC character, it makes sense. Joe’s absolutely right. That was the goal of this movie, however: make Superman (which they only call him once, and then only as a joke) “relevant” by making his villain sympathetic and making Superman less than morally centered. People like Snyder and Goyer (and to an extent, Nolan) don’t believe in heroes as people who have clear moral convictions and the strength to carry them out. They made the real hero of Superman’s story, Jonathan Kent, a coward. If you undo Jon Kent, you undo Clark Kent and by extension, Superman. Leaving aside the killing of Zod for a second, Man of Steel did something NO other iteration of Superman did: it made Jonathan and Martha Kent impotent, cowardly people instead of the guiding, molding moral forces they have always been. This achieved the very undoing of Superman’s character, leaving us with a NotSoSuperman, a hobo murderer who is the “new Superman” built in Snyder and Goyer’s image. You have only to read their interviews after MoS to see this was their ultimate goal. They’ve succeeded, but at the cost of what made Superman more than just a guy with powers and go.

  • Superman

    I never thought the day would come where I’d agree with Joe Quesada, but since it’s on a DC character, it makes sense. Joe’s absolutely right. That was the goal of this movie, however: make Superman (which they only call him once, and then only as a joke) “relevant” by making his villain sympathetic and making Superman less than morally centered. People like Snyder and Goyer (and to an extent, Nolan) don’t believe in heroes as people who have clear moral convictions and the strength to carry them out. They made the real hero of Superman’s story, Jonathan Kent, a coward. If you undo Jon Kent, you undo Clark Kent and by extension, Superman. Leaving aside the killing of Zod for a second, Man of Steel did something NO other iteration of Superman did: it made Jonathan and Martha Kent impotent, cowardly people instead of the guiding, molding moral forces they have always been. This achieved the very undoing of Superman’s character, leaving us with a NotSoSuperman, a hobo murderer who is the “new Superman” built in Snyder and Goyer’s image. You have only to read their interviews after MoS to see this was their ultimate goal. They’ve succeeded, but at the cost of what made Superman more than just a guy with powers and go.

  • Wallace Morrison

    If we want his damn opinion, we’ll f’n ask him. I know!! Maybe I should go ask a vegan if cramming down a few Whoppers is ok. No one cares what this guy thinks, especially someone we just don’t care about. Hey Josh, a little tip for ya. I buy my tickets on the premise that the actors and creators of the movie will do well and the subject matter at hand and not because you like to tongue some guys ear and hold his hand while he and you pee together. Impress some guy? I hope it makes him barf and catch an allergic reaction to sunflower seeds.

  • Wallace Morrison

    If we want his damn opinion, we’ll f’n ask him. I know!! Maybe I should go ask a vegan if cramming down a few Whoppers is ok. No one cares what this guy thinks, especially someone we just don’t care about. Hey Josh, a little tip for ya. I buy my tickets on the premise that the actors and creators of the movie will do well and the subject matter at hand and not because you like to tongue some guys ear and hold his hand while he and you pee together. Impress some guy? I hope it makes him barf and catch an allergic reaction to sunflower seeds.

  • SwagMeOutHoe

    But it wasn’t bad. It was simple and to the point. The “S” isn’t an “S.” It means this on my planet. It didn’t go into unnecessary details or a history of the language, he just simply stated what it meant.

  • D

    The u.s. does it all the time………

  • D

    The u.s. does it all the time………

  • Frank

    I wonder if Quesada thinks Hitler was the hero of World War II.

  • Underground Anthem TX

    Possibly– it looked to me like those things were surely landing in populated, although concentrated, areas. I recall watching it and thinking “Man, that’s gonna kill a whole lot of people.”

  • Mariah Kaercher

    This doesn’t make sense because Zod isn’t the hero.. He did want to preserve the race, but he also wanted to turn Earth into Krypton and then kill everyone on earth. Is that fair to kill an entire nation of people because Krypton had its chance and it was destroyed? Hmm…

  • Andahaion

    I didn’t see any reference to the U.S. or its policies in the article. It was mainly about one man’s thoughts on a movie that was adapted from comic books. Thanks for the reply though!

  • http://www.thenerdavenger.com/ Kane Bunce

    Superman had decided in the comics who lives and who dies. He killed Doomsday for example. Sadly for him Doomsday was designed to eventually ressurect itself to be stronger than last time.

    ADDITION: Also there has been many consequences in the comics. Especially involving Lex Luthor (such as when he was the president of the USA).

  • JCK

    Better writing is needed for it to suceed. They have the talent and the money for special effects, but the writing was sub par and left me not wanting to make a return trip to this DC universe.

  • Hawkeye Girl

    Thank you for bringing that up. They went and made comics partisan and ugly. Pissed me off all to hell. And I call BS on ‘morality intact’. Osbourne saved people from being turned into stone. Cap was evil (supposedly!!) because he had outdated notions of decency and ethics he was fighting for and didn’t know what a fKing Iphone was – also suddenly, heroes were bad because they didn’t pay for buildings being destroyed when they were stopping the bad guys. Firestar was bad because she gave up being a superhero when registration came around – but she didn’t want to endanger her family. Ant Girl defected against her friends, Tony’s bull**** got Black Goliath killed. Tony didn’t give a damn that Quasar got killed after Quasar asked for help (Avengers Assemble my BUTT) and the list GOES ON.

    The few people I sympathized with was Invisible Woman, Mockingbird and Hawkeye. They were enraged to put up with this BS and completely offended.

  • Mark_S

    All of which would have been interesting if they hadn’t made Iron Man the great villain, willing to lock up his friends for life in another dimension. There was no morality in cw, just politics and double crosses. Once they came out with the Thor clone you might as well as had a rumble between the Jets and the Sharks for all the morality shown. That and the fact that marvel was even too lazy to define the law that everyone was fighting over. That’s JQ and while it may have been commercially successful it basically left almost no one in the mu worthy of respect. Cap surrenders, Peter un-masks, She-Hulk a lawyer has no idea that the law allows her to be drafted by SHIELD and oh yea, before they put Norman in charge of national security they put the Taskmaster in charge of a bunch of kids. Now I hear the Beast has been dumb enough to tamper with time to teach Scott a lesson and the Illuminati are blowing up worlds. I don’t mind grey but I’d like a reason to cheer one side over the other. With marvel I don’t have that anymore.
    When a new batch of writers editors comes in I think about taking a look again, until then JQ’s marvel is morally bankrupt wasteland that I want no part of.

  • Dan

    What an idiot. I’m sorry but I loved Man of Steel and I thought it made me think of a young Superman dealing with life or death issues. Zod had a family he was about to burn to death and Superman had to choose and he chose humans. Besides the surviving Kryptonians were all criminals who tried to take over their world and threatened to change our atmosphere for the good of “his” people. Remember what Zod said when Kal tried to co-exist with them, “…and choke and strugle to breath like you did”. He was a villian and Superman stopped him and his band of criminals from destroying our planet.
    Really good movie if you pay attention.

  • Hawkeye Girl

    BS. There are good guys and bad guys. Daredevil doesn’t rob people, Taskmaster doesn’t save people’s lives. Please don’t put PC crap on here, it is offensive.

  • Dan

    Superman kills 1 villian and everyone goes nuts. In Captain America 2, how many people did Cap kill? Like 25.

  • Asura

    No, it’s not. This is genocide! I think we have had enough of Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, Red Khmer, Idi Amin, Bush and so many others. Even in sci-fi / comics there are lines wich some authors should not cross.

  • Michael Mcpherson

    They really didn’t give him much of a moral Compass. Kevin Costner Paw Kent was a heartless bastard. If you follow the thought “Superman is a tyrannical overlord” then Man of Steel was perfect, if you follow the “beacon of hope” model then the film was a failure.

  • Guest

    Presenting Superman with a villain that has a somewhat noble intention does not make the hero “less than morally centered.” It basically just means that they both have their motivations: Zod is in it to save Krypton, Clark is in it to save the people of Earth. Even if Zod wanted to just save his race, he wanted to do so at the expense of everyone on Earth. So, yes, Superman was right to oppose him. Is that really such a hard pill to swallow?

    And Jonathan Kent, a man who died to protect his son’s secret, was not a coward. He basically acted like I’d imagine any father would when put in that situation. And did you see half the conversations that Clark has with his mother, like when she says “The truth about you is beautiful…”? Or his interactions with his father? His father always guided him to turn the other cheek instead of lashing out in anger. Just because they don’t say, flat out, “Oh, go out and rescue people with your powers” does not make them “cowardly.” They actually do have something to worry about if their son’s secret was exposed. THAT’S what ANY PARENT would feel.

  • JoBuNYC

    “Bush?” Uy…

  • Hawkeye Girl

    And then Cyclops and Frost make all kinds of excuses about how it wasn’t their fault. I wanted to scream my head off. It make have been out of their control to some degree, but you DON’T go and whine like a freaking infant that it was somebody else’s fault when you nearly destroy the damn world. And Cyclops was being an a**hat even BEFORE the Phoenix got him, so that’s not an excuse. He refused to let anyone else make a decision in whether or not they risked the entire world being incinerated, he did it because he wanted to save Mutants and apparently didn’t give a BLEEP about the rest of the human race. The Avengers crimes were barely worth mentioning next to that crap. Grr. Still holding a grudge, apparently. :P

  • Guest

    Aaaand so have the British, the French, the Russians, the Japanese, the Chinese, etc.

  • JoBuNYC

    “Hobo murderer” is hilarious.

  • Charles Xavier

    Well, considering he’s a member of a highly evolved alien race and genetically engineered with the sole purpose of protecting his people, can you really blame him? What would lowly humans mean to Zod? Nothing.

    And come on now…I’ve seen so many of you Marvel Cinematic Universe people get mad when people call Winter Soldier a villain. Zod’s just doing his duty. Nothing more.

  • Hawkeye Girl

    ::Dies laughing::

  • Comic Book Fan

    Apparently Quesada has as difficult a time understanding a story as writing one. He was going to build Krypton on Earth (destroying mankind). My nephew even understood that. I shouldn’t expect soo much from the genius that brought us Brand New Day!

  • Asura

    I don’t know…Zod didn’t seem like someone that would stop after knowing that there is such a planet like Earth. He had this thing about “order”, “purpose”, “role”. Through Zod’s eyes we (humans, earthlings) are erratic, chaotic. We lack “fortitude”, “discipline”…I may be wrong, but watching Zod I thought about Darkseid too.

  • Charles Xavier

    But…on the bright side, even if Zod was a straight up villain, at least he’s more three-dimensional than all the villains in the Marvel Cinematic Universe combined.

  • atalex

    As he was the prime mover behind the blatantly fascistic Civil War outcome and the architect of “One More Day,” unquestionably the worst Spiderman story in history, I find Quesada’s dismissal of Man of Steel to be a compelling reason to go rent a movie that I skipped the first time.

  • Guest

    Unbelievable. Quesada, at this point, is an embarrassment to the comic book industry. Apparently he can’t understand the simple premise behind a movie that even a 8-year-old can. Zod didn’t say “give me my people and then I’ll leave.” He said “let me kill all of Earth’s people so I can have my people.”

    Was Man of Steel perfect? No. But was Zod the hero? Uh, no. Man of Steel had some problems, but the relationship between Zod and Superman, Zod’s portrayal, and the reasons Clark had for opposing him were not among them.

    And, important distinction, Joe Quesada is not a comic fan, he is a MARVEL fan. There is a huge difference. This is the same man who embittered the rivalry between DC and Marvel just because of his straight up fanboyism, so, of course, when the box office returns show that a DC movie can actually compete with Marvel’s Cinematic Universe, he, of course, is up front and center to bash it.

  • Roger

    Quesada may have missed the part where Zod was looking to exact revenge on Kal-El and was OK killing/enslaving humans…um…not really a hero mentality there.

  • Meekrob

    Well, if Zod would just stay dead…

  • Reese

    not sure wth movie Quesada was watching but it sure as hell wasnt Man of Steel.I hate invoking it but zod was pretty much a hitler like figure…

  • Seth Wilson

    It’s all a matter of how you look at it. Is it fair people destroy a forest to build houses and building for human taking away homes of animals. Not really but we do it anyway. And in the comics Kryptonians was warmongering planet thieves anyway, it was the foundation of their government. They sent an outpost to earth not to visit, but to take the planet. The Krypton in the film my not even be the original Krypton. It could most likely someone else planet that they terraformed, since they already had the machinery to do it.

  • Meekrob

    Bisexual?

    You lost me.

  • atalex

    Honestly, I think the Punisher was where everything at Marvel started to go wrong. I mean, let’s be honest. He’s a serial killer. He’s a serial killer who’s victim of choice consists of bad guys no one will miss, but he’s still a serial killer. And for 30 years, Marvel has bent over backwards to deal with the fact that a serial killer is one of its most popular “heroes.” Wolverine is a killer who stays on a never-ending redemption arc. Deadpool at least has the virtue of being tragically insane. But the fact that the Punisher was too popular for Marvel to treat like the villain he plainly was laid the groundwork for later stories that there wasn’t really any morality at all. Just the phenomenon of cool. And some of us finally outgrew that.

  • Meekrob

    Well, not all the human race necessarily. But if he were to target, say for example, YouTube commenters….

  • Guest

    Well, maybe not Tom Hiddleston’s Loki, but the rest of them? Uh, yes. Whether it’s Red Skull, Malekith, or Abomination, pretty much the rest of the villains that have popped up in Marvel’s movies have been about as interesting as cardboard.

  • Seth Wilson

    I think most things in MoS only made fuel for Lex Luther to start his campaign against Superman, but unlike the comic the film give good cause for people to distrust him.

  • Reese

    except zod wasnt actually the reasonable type, he didnt come to earth going hey kal want to help us rebuild society he came with guns blazing then planned on exterminating an entire race of people for a homeworld for his race. yes zod’s desire to ‘save’ his people is understandable but it doesnt change the fact that zod himself is little more then a mass murderer.

  • atalex

    I stopped reading with Civil War Frontline #11 (the one where Sally Floyd bitchslapped Captain America by revealing what a sap he was for thinking America was anything but a nation of cowardly superficial dolts). I thought it was the most fundamentally immoral comic book I had ever read. It was, IMO, literally evil in the message that it conveyed. It is the only comic I have ever paid for and then deliberately destroyed. And I resolved never to give Marvel another penny of my money.

  • Planetary

    That’s a text book definition of attention whoring.

  • atalex

    Having read that issue, I am of the opinion that Cyclops was completely justified in killing Xavier who was cheerfully participating an attempted assassination against someone whom he claimed to consider a son. (And that’s without getting into the decades of brutally psychological mistreatment he had inflicted on that “son.”)

  • atalex

    Please. If anyone should be blamed, surely it’s Tony “Iron Nazi” Stark for the brilliant idea of shooting a godlike cosmic being with an untested raygun. And frankly, why should mutants care about the perpetually genocidal human race.

  • Chap

    BREAKING NEWS: the CEO of Pepsi doesn’t like Coke!!

  • FiveDecadeComicGuy

    Quesada, life-long Marvel guy – why would anyone care what he has to say about ANYTHING DC?

  • Charles Xavier

    Loki is great. I take that back…he’s the one bearable MCU villain. Malekith was the absolute worst. Calling him cardboard is too much of a compliment.

  • Andrew

    Originally? No, they don’t. Which is exactly why “character development” comes into play. Taskmaster was originally a villain, sure .. but does that mean every villain has to stay a villain? Or every hero has to stay a hero? Things get super boring super fast if you go, “This is a good guy. This is a bad guy. The end.”

    Taskmaster went from teaching bad guys how to fight (and fighting them himself) to a mercenary for hire. As a mercenary for hire he worked alongside both “good guys” and “bad guys” as, regardless of his affiliation, he is capable at what he does. This is called development. You get to see into Taskmaster’s life and see those blurred lines of his morality and decide if he’s right or wrong. If somebody paid him to save somebody else? He would do it, if the price was high enough.

    And no, Daredevil doesn’t rob from people. But he isn’t wholly good, either. He’s had his murky areas over the years. So has EVERY superhero. Scott Summers doesn’t rob people, but he’ll sure cheat on his wife. Rogue attempted to murder Ms. Marvel and then .. joined the X-Men.

    If you want characters who only live with morality based on “bad” or “good” then you may need to pick up some children’s books. After all, even Snape’s morality in Harry Potter is murky. Young Adult may be too much for you.

  • http://www.kylebstiff.wordpress.com Kyle B. Stiff Resurrection

    It might be one of those deals where he’s just so old school that it’s uncomfortable for him to see a villain with motivation. You have to remember that a lot of those old comic book villains were psychopaths that liked to laugh a lot. But just because you can empathize with them doesn’t mean you have to accept them; they still have to be crushed or blasted or run over (depending on your weapon of choice), it just makes the battle that much more emotionally dynamic.

  • Asura

    Indeed, not a “genocidal”. He is just another power-craving bastard who dragged the U.S. into one of the most aggressive imperialist policies throughout its history. Iraq and Afghanistan have been devastated. I know they were not “earthly paradises” but the “Bush Doctrine” turn things even worse, specially after the invasion. And I only mention Iraq and Afghanistan while many other countries were directly or indirectly affected.

  • R3aLdoe Foo

    The movie was so good in many ways, but I do agree with Joe about the film making you angry of sorts….Zod being a hero not so much, though the plot about him trying to terraform earth was really stupid and unnecessary and kind of cemented him being a villain to earth. without it, it would have just been aliens fighting on earth. AVP anybody? I wanted to love this movie but it didn’t as a whole do it for me. The early Krypton scenes and Russel Crowe Jor-El parts were great though. I feel they skipped through early supes childhood way too fast to segue into a not so ideal 3rd act story wise. Yet, even then the special effects and action was tremendous.

  • Planetary

    This was not only his first outing as a superhero, it was the first time he actively had to enter into combat. So no, expecting him to act in a way where he’s not thinking “Holy sh*t, these guys are trying to kill me and murder everyone on the planet!” is unrealistic. It’s like expecting an army guy to act like a seasoned vet the first time he sees combat.

  • Andrew

    The Punisher has always been one of those oddball characters. Treated like an A-list character by fans but treated as a B or C-list character by Marvel. Like you said, he’s a serial killer that become popular. I wouldn’t say it’s where Marvel “went wrong” (as there are certainly bigger places you could point that finger) but it is a thing that, in hindsight, probably would have been better to just let it go.

    Then again, a glorified serial killer who even superheroes work with while actively working against? You have to admit, there’s a lot of conflict there that can rustle the pages. If anything, Punisher is more used as a means to have other characters along side, or against him, shine.

  • Don

    Wow Joe. That was the dumbest rationale for hating the movie. Zod, the hero?

  • Mark_S

    There are shades of grey, but at the extreme is black and white and cloning Thor was a black a deed as ever a villain made. Putting Taskmaster in charge of teaching kids -including the daughter of the man he tried to kill- shows a distinct lack of caring which side is right or wrong. Right and wrong still exist you know, even in the gray areas.
    Basically it’s marketing over morality. It doesn’t matter the body count, the crime or the evil nature of the character, if he can make marvel money then he’s going to be a hero and to hell with morality. I’m not even sure marvel knows the difference between right and wrong anymore.

  • Mark_S

    Pretty much. Front Line 11 told me all that I needed to know about how the writers at marvel felt about good and evil and America itself. No wonder JQ thought Zod was the hero, he killed wantonly, had no respect for human life and was willing to ‘do what had to be done’. JQ’s kind of guy.

  • BiggyDingus

    Your willful ignorance is what’s offensive. Political correctness has nothing to do with black and white or ambiguous morality.

    The Punisher doesn’t rob people, he kills mostly bad people, sometimes saving people along the way. On the other hand, he isn’t exactly gentle with any innocent bystanders or property that gets in his way. Good guy or bad guy? For the last year, Doctor Octopus didn’t rob people, and he saved a lot of lives. He also did it in a ruthless, ends-justifies-the-means sort of way that trampled over everyone’s civil rights, caused tremendous collateral damage, and created an atmosphere of fear even before the goblins got involved. Again, good guy or bad guy?

    Compelling, ambiguous morality has nothing to do with political correctness. It has everything to do with the fact that yes, there are good guys, and there are bad guys, and sometimes the good guys do bad things for all the right reasons and the bad guys do good things for all the wrong reasons, and sometimes the good guys do bad things for bad reasons because they can be mostly good, but still deeply flawed, and sometimes that makes a story a little more interesting than Golden Age DC comics.

    And just to prove that my arguments aren’t motivated by some need for political correctness: Hawkeye Girl, please stop being a retard and actually take some time to think about your opinions before spouting them.

  • BiggyDingus

    THAT was the most fundamentally immoral comic you’ve ever read? Really?

  • Guillermo Ponce

    You need some pretty extreme and outrageous reasons to commit Xenocide and be the hero.

  • Spencer

    Come on CBR, you’re above this kind of stuff…

  • BiggyDingus

    How odd. My son actually got me into reading Spider-man with the end of Civil War precisely because of this turn. However, unlike you, neither of us thought that Norman Osborn was a “good guy,” nor did we think that anyone in Marvel was trying to paint him as a “good guy.” Honestly, I thought that was painfully obvious, they weren’t exactly subtle. I am pretty sure I read at least a couple of Osborn internal monologues that pretty much said “Ha ha ha, now that I’m back on top its time for me to destroy my enemies and shape this world into my own empire.” (If you’re having trouble telling the difference between good guys and bad guys, that would be a sign that he’s a bad guy.)

    What was compelling about the end of Civil War and Reign wasn’t that any reasonably perceptive reader would think Osborn was the good guy. It was all about how Osborn got enough people to buy his “redemption” and put him into power, while the reader knew he was still a villain and saw him continue to do “bad guy things” even as he was polishing his public image, and all we could do was wait to see what kind of damage he could do from his position of trust.

    Yes, the fact that he managed to fool the government and the public in the first place stretched belief for me a bit, but that was before I realized just how many times the that sort of thing happens in Marvel. I mean, how many times has “Sorry about all the murders guys, that was the Lizard, but I’m all better now” happened?

  • BiggyDingus

    This was actually one of the only things I disliked about Civil War. At the beginning, it seemed like a reasonable comic-book debate about privacy and government overreach between two well-intentioned sides with different views. Then it quickly became obvious which side the editorial staff supported, and naturally any characters on the wrong side had to become assholes.

  • BiggyDingus

    Honestly, I think Quesada must have been forced to watch Man of Steel, where he proceeded to play on his iPad the entire movie because he expected a repeat of Superman Returns. That’s the only conceivable reason he shouldn’t have noticed the fact that Zod always intended to rebuild Krypton on the ashes of earth.

  • BiggyDingus

    Golden Age, experienced Superman went to ridiculous lengths for the sake of mercy.

    Man of Steel Superman was an inexperienced hero who was facing something resembling a fair fight for the first time in his life. And the guys who had the exact same powers he did had numerical superiority. And access to superior technology. And actual military training. And Russell Crowe for a father. Seriously, when has Russell Crowe ever convincingly preached peace and mercy?

    And correct me if I’m wrong, didn’t the movie end with Superman offering Zod one last chance to surrender and rebuild elsewhere, and Zod forcing his hand by trying to incinerate a child with his heat vision?

    I’m actually looking forward to Man of Steel 2. I can see Superman being forced to destroy the last of his own people as the driving experience that spurs him to become much more like the Golden Age boy scout that never kills. Given how “darker and grittier” is still in right now, I’m probably not going to get what I want, but I can hope.

  • BiggyDingus

    I can see how being an angry, aimlessly wandering teenager for most of the movie would make Superman less sympathetic to the audience. Of course, being unsympathetic doesn’t preclude you from being a hero either.

  • BiggyDingus

    Save your breath. It’s obvious that Banon, Quesada, and a five or six other people are completely oblivious to the fact that Zod had always intended to rebuild Krypton over Earth in order to have our sweet, sweet yellow son.

    If you ignore that fact, their opinions make perfect sense.

  • BiggyDingus

    He’s not talking about you obviously, he’s talking about Quesada, who had to blatantly ignore part of the plot to describe why he disliked the movie.

  • BiggyDingus

    To be fair, when the guy with interstellar space-faring technology and presumably good sensors passes right by the uninhabited planet and proceeds to start destroying the one with seven billion people on it, it’s probably safe to assume that he would say no to Mars.

  • Steve Norman

    You know what Quesada did love? One More Day. Just keep that in mind.

  • Robert White

    The original Punisher in Spider-Man was treated as a true example of a gray character, that could be considered a villain, given your point of view. I think it’s fine to have a morally gray character, but you might be on to something in terms of giving the Punisher his own series. Once you do that, all bets are off and you have to start veering toward a heroic take. (I refuse to view the Punisher as evil because I don’t think he is. Sad and disturbed? Sure He’s clearly a criminal; he’s committed many felonies, but he DOES kill abhorrently evil criminals.)

  • Mark_S

    It wasn’t that marvel was trying to portray him as the good guy, it was that marvel was saying that the only way to get anything good done was to become bad. Tony could only get the good of following the law done by breaking the laws, Reed could only do good by designing a hell prison in the negative zone, Cap could only do good by breaking the law… With marvel at the time and I believe now the only ‘good’ they acknowledge is when a character becomes completely bad in pursuit of a good goal. The ends justify the means and honor, friendship, loyalty… quaint old words that don’t fit into marvel anymore.
    Face it, when you have Hank Pym offer Loki membership in the Avengers you’ve lost the ability to tell the good guys from the bad guys.

  • BiggyDingus

    Who said Superman has to be white? Dean Cain played Superman (albeit in a very different sort of series).

    Generally Superman isn’t blonde (or ginger), and his complexion tends to be much closer to white than black, but that still leaves a lot of non-white and mixed-race actors who could stay within the range of “traditional” Superman depictions. And of course, that’s assuming that Superman even has to keep to tradition in that respect. Black Lex Luthor and Nick Fury both worked just fine at staying true to the original character.

    Gender and sexual orientation are so key to how the character was written that it would be very tricky to change either. Not impossible, but still very hard to do well in a way that makes the character still recognizable.

    That, and judging by the track record for more established DC female leads, it would be very, very hard for a female Superman to get a movie made.

  • Mark_S

    You forget that Doc Ock killed Peter and took over his body. Real good guy that.

    Nice to see that I was right in leaving the cbr forums, people like you still rule, still willing to insult rather than discuss. I’m sure MikeyB and the rest are still shouting down the opposition. CBr is still a good place to learn how to hate.

  • BiggyDingus

    As someone with a bit of familiarity with combat and tactics, I second your comment whole-heartedly. Superman always shows mercy when he has an overwhelming tactical advantage. In most versions, from the Golden Age comics up to Smallville, Superman gained experience stopping bank robbers and other mundane criminals before taking on anything with even a chance of beating him, and even then he still killed the biggest threats when he had to.

    When you’re facing an evenly matched or superior opponent who adamantly refuses to surrender (or in this case, pretty much tells you that even if he goes down, he’ll spend his dying breath destroying as much of the world as he can), then your only responsible choice is to neutralize the threat the moment you have the chance.

  • BiggyDingus

    Your idea for a gay superman is actually an interesting one. It’s a shame most people will probably never read it because it’s preceded by a bunch of condescending, pedantic nonsense.

  • BiggyDingus

    To be fair, a large part of why many of those titles fail to sell is because they’re inferior. They’re inferior because they’re produced by less experienced and less talented creative teams, or in the cases where they’ve got some A-listers doing the work, those works clearly didn’t get the majority of their attention. And we have the lesser creative teams working them because the most talented and experienced people are put to work on the flagship titles that involve primarily white male leaders or ensemble casts.

    I imagine that’s why the good comics with female, minority, or gay leads come from outside the big two comic studios. When you work outside that system, there’s less of a mentality that “When I prove myself to be the best, I get to work on Spider-man/Superman/Batman/Avengers/etc.” People create new series, and the reward for doing a good job is that you get to be in charge of your own continuing series and maybe get to create a few more.

  • JoBuNYC

    I suggest seeking a more informed perspective. Bush was a terrible president responsible for policies that needlessly resulted in untold thousands of deaths. To compare him with the likes of Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot and Co., however, is reckless and unproductive to adult conversation.

    I notice that you neglected to include within your list of tyrants Leonid Brezhnev, who was responsible for the Soviet Union’s occupation of Afghanistan and 10 times the loss of life as US actions in the country. All this over a shitty DC movie, really?

  • BiggyDingus

    I think you’re argument is based on false assumptions. The people who complain about a lack of diversity aren’t the ones who didn’t support these characters, they’re the ones who DID.

    Whites just barely became the plurality in the U.S. (in other words, whites are the largest group, but no longer more than 50%.) If you take into account disposable income and spending habits (like the fact that Asians consume Japanese and Korean comics in greater proportion than whites), whites and males are still a majority of “the comic book market.” And while there are obviously many straight white males who care about diversity in media, the sheer inertia of the market is hard to overcome.

    In other words, many people are loyal to the titles they’ve always read (which have mostly white male leads) and have a limited amount of attention and money to try new ones. When they do try new ones, they tend to gravitate towards new characters they think they can relate to, and when judging a book by it’s cover, someone who shares your gender and looks like you probably has the advantage. It’s not anyone’s fault (at least nobody still living.) But it does mean that if you’re floating a new character, whether it’s a biracial lesbian or a straight white male, you can’t expect it to be competing with Avengers on the first day.

  • Tomi Hanzek

    They really aren’t.

  • Todd Matthy

    The final battle could’ve been avoided by having Clark tell Zod he didn’t kill the Kryptonians but sent them to the Phantom Zone.

  • MacGuffin

    I though MOS was a good movie up until the end. I think they should have just sent everyone to the phantom zone instead of having Supes kill Zod. When he was forced to kill Zod it just left a bad impression on me on an otherwise very good comic book movie.

    DC shouldn’t be trying to make an ensemble movie ala ‘Avengers’. They should in my opinion make standalone movies for their characters.

  • MacGuffin

    I wholeheartedly agree with you

  • Jase

    I understand people not liking the bit where Superman breaks Zod’s neck…but really? The guy who was ready, willing, and able to commit genocide and wipe out humanity, Quesada interpreted as the hero? Yeah, whatever dude.

  • ECONOMYpolitica

    No, it might have been better if that was the movie. I think he’s confusing the terribly boring World of New Krypton comics with with the stupid, over-serious Man of Steel movie.

  • thesnappysneezer

    there wasn’t much to stop reading.

  • Adam L

    Kidding. Although who’s to say he isn’t

  • Travis

    Ahhh, the “First day” excuse. The ultimate cop out to justify poor writing and plot induced stupidity.

    Children in an antique store are capable of grasping the concept of “we shouldn’t screw around in here” but somehow Superman gets a pass because “it was his first day.”

  • https://www.behance.net/LinesToThePaper Justin Wood

    Yeah, I really didn’t like that movie but you’re right on the money there. The problem I had was why Earth? Was there some reason they couldn’t easily relocate to any other given system considering they were terraforming anyways? But yeah, Zod was far from blameless.

  • Todd

    I’m not certain Quesada even watched Man of Steel. From the vey beginning he was looking for a planet to terraform and recreate as Krypton. From the moment you first saw Zod after the destruction of Krypton they were talking about how Earth was ideal to rebuild on.
    That was one of Kal’s first conversations with Zod. And his one promise during his communications takeover, to leave earth alone so long as they turned over Kal-El, was an empty promise from the start.
    Sure, he was trying to rebuild his race, and was planning to annihilate humanity in the process. All that mattered to him was rebuilding. Kal-El on the otherhand, sacrificed his chance to no longer be alone in the universe as a Kryptonian and was fighting (even while surrendering) to save earth.
    Quesada’s is only saying that stuff to bash the competition because of his personal grudge against DC. And I hope DC continues to disappoint him.

  • Chuck777

    But Q is correct – the only reason Zod wants to make Krypton on Earth is because he is out of fuel and Superman was defying him.

  • Chuck777

    Ensemble movies, when done right, make far more than solo hero movies. None of the phase one solo movies made a billion dollars but Avengers sure did.

  • Chuck777

    isn’t Clark committing genocide by not rebirthing his race? I mean sure, doing it on Earth is a no go but it is within his power to resurrect his race and he chooses not to.

  • Chuck777

    And he was only doing that because his terraformer was out of fuel. Given Kryptonians’ technological superiority and the sheer manpower of humanity, I am sure they could have come together to refuel the ship, give Zod his macguffin and see him off to a solar system with a red star.

  • GL3

    I look at it like this by the same logic Magneto is really the hero in the X Men movies. The best kinds of Villains to a certain extent are those who think they right and everyone else is wrong. In essence they are the hero of their own story ( See Black Adam, Magneto, even Lex). It allowed Zod to have layers to say that he was doing exactly what he was breed for to preserve Krypton. What made him the villain was having to kill everyone on Earth to. Now if you wanna argue why they didn’t just go to an uninhabited planet instead …..ummmm I got nothin LOL

  • Chuck777

    Robert Redford was a cool villain. Loki was awesome. Thunderbolt Ross is always fun. Stain, Whiplash and Hammer were interesting.

    So really Marvel only had Generic Dark Elf Dude and Generic Red Skull Dude as generic/lame villains.

  • Outside

    Seems Joe Q wasn’t paying very much attention when he was watching MoS, since Zod does say to Kal; “I believe Jor-El meant for us to come here so we could rebuild Krypton; on top of these humans’ remains.”
    As for Zod being a hero… if you look at him from a Kryptonian military-guild prespective.

  • AzureXCrimson

    A hero? WTF are you talking about. Zod is not the hero in the film. He tried to rebuild Krypton by terraforming it at the expense of killing off billions of people who already inhabited the planet. A hero in no way, shape or form considers sacrificing a single soul. Zod came to Earth guns blazing, claiming it his and trying to take it by force. Quesada stick to critiquing movies that you can understand. Better yet don’t quit you day job, because you clearly suck at trying to see the basic premise of a film. Do what you do best, writing and drawing comic books.

  • http://jbsargent.wordpress.com/ TWOxACROSS

    This was something that always bugged me. People often claimed that Man of Steel’s interpretation of Superman was bad because he killed people, namely Zod, but this entire movie was an origin story.

    It’s not like Clark was just going to don the cape and suddenly be above killing and whatnot; the casualties of Clark’s fight with Zod, including killing the last member of his own kind because Zod forced him to choose,

    In this universe, Superman has to live with the decision he made, and I think that makes it much more interesting reason as to why he doesn’t every want to kill again.

    Hell, I’ve chatted with friends and said that in a Man of Steel 2 (or whatever sequel) that Darksied should be his next antagonist, because now you have a dude who would literally be trying to get Superman to kill him to prove a point, while Superman himself wrestles with his own emotions because of his previous decision to kill Zod.

    But that’s just a thing with me. I have a love/hate relationship with Superman, because I love his powers and all that, but I hate that nothing is ever really a challenge for him, and if there is, Kryptonite is always involved and it just seems like a McGuffin to shoehorn in some risk for the nearly indestructible hero. The only thing about Superman that isn’t invincible is his mind and heart, and you don’t see that kind of inner turmoil happen all too often.

  • http://jbsargent.wordpress.com/ TWOxACROSS

    This is exactly how I felt.

  • Scooby

    Quesada obviously missed the part where Zod also only wanted to bring back only those Kryptonians he thought were worthy genetic stock. He didn’t want to bring back Krypton – he wanted to bring back his preferred version of Krypton.
    In addition, in no part of the film did Zod indicate he was going to leave Earth to recreate Krypton. Zaora stated it perfectly in her speech to Superman that they were willing to murder millions to get what they wanted. To Zod, humans were ants. You don’t worry about an anthill when you’re building a house. He was going to destroy humanity and terraform the Earth whether Superman was there or not,

    Using Quesada’s logic he probably thinks Hitler was also the hero of WW2. All that guy wanted to do was build his own master race, and the allies were just getting in his way!

    Quesada is an ass!

  • Alvaro Molina

    Quesada is like a little kid when trying to express his opinions about the competition, and incredibly unprofessional. And please, he would’ve hated MOS regardless.

  • James D

    Well said sir.

  • James D

    Again, well said.

  • JP

    Rather shameful, Quesada, as Zod was basically Hitler.

  • Swagyolo

    Looked like there was enough empty space around Shield HQ, although a lot of non-Hydra SHIELD agents would have probably been killed in the crash.

  • GUNSMITH

    “He wanted to save his race, and Superman didn’t let him,”..Dude, he wanted to kill off humanity to do it

  • Mike McTighe

    Jor-El would’ve known how to use the space drive to defeat Zod without killing anyone, the Priest would not. That part was retarded.

  • Mike McTighe

    No, it was pretty effing bad. No one talks like that. So stilted.

  • Mike McTighe

    Then she just casually is all like “oh, here’s the new guy” at the end. It’s not ever said she makes the Clark-Superman connection, just that she finds him as a wanderer.

  • Mark_S

    The problem is that death is so temporary for an X-men. Didn’t they just have a welcome back to life party for Nightcrawler? Now if they had done something serious to Prof X like giving him a toothache maybe I’d care.

  • nerdbasher

    Winter Solider was a pretty effective villain.

    And Justin Hammer is just hands down awesome.

  • nerdbasher

    Nice try deflecting from the insane collateral damage in Man of Steel – the difference is Superman actually had the physical power to save people by his actions. The Avengers, not so much.

  • nerdbasher

    His issue wasn’t with Zod though. It was with Supes characterization.

  • Dan Riedel

    Precisely, Quesada has ADHD or even worse, competitor’s envy. Zod clearly expressed his desire to rebuild Krypton on Earth and Kal’s bones.

    Sorry if the villains of the WB are more multi-dimensional than Marvel’s.

    That said, Marvel will STILL take my money and Superman v Batfleck will get pick up when it hits netflix.

  • http://www.thenerdavenger.com/ Kane Bunce

    I think Iron Man’s side, ie, the one editors thought was the right side, were the bigger jerks. especially when it come to using villains as allies. And Cap was willing to work with heroes and anti-heroes he’d normally not work with. What the heck is up with that?

  • Scott

    Let’s keep in mind that he was speaking off the cuff with Kevin Smith. It’s likely been a number of months since he’s seen the movie. He might not remember all the details. Selective memory is very common when fans are praising or condemning work. Maybe I’m being naive, but I’d rather believe he was just honestly expressing his opinion in stead of “shilling for Marvel.” Really tired of how we’re always looking to vilify someone just for saying what’s on his mind. Enough with the hostility.

  • Convoy

    I didn’t like the movie, but I sure wouldn’t call Zod a hero. Zod is the reason why Jor-El and Lara had a natural birth for Clark. So that he could be free of the pre destined programing that all Kryptonians had. It’s the reason why, instead of fleeing with their child, they sent him off to space. As open minded as they were, that programing for the self preservation of Krypton would have forced them to recreate Krypton. They may not have gone about it on the level that Zod planned because they were not soldiers. Tried they still would have though because the self preservation of Krypton is what matters the most. You can even say that them having Clark naturally is part of that self preservation programing as well. So no, Zod wasn’t the hero.

  • David Nunez

    Am I crazy, or did everyone miss the entire point of the movie?

    Superman had to choose between the world he came from or the world he grew up on.

    Because if Krypton was to live, Earth must die. And vice-versa.

    The whole idea is that Superman is now a defender of Earth and its people. That’s what everyone should’ve gotten from this.

  • Kaizokuman

    It only said that part after he was connected to Zod’s ship, also if it happened like that it would be pretty damn anti climactic.

  • Sakasa

    Well I think you guys are missing the point about alot of marvel anti heroes. Alot of them know they aren’t good guys sure their actions might lead to good things but they are not good people nor do they strive to be, this is very important when you are separating the insane. Ends justified the means, punisher has pointed this out when he compared himself to Spidey, Wolverine point this out when he compared him self to Cap. They also have supporting characters that act as a moral compass.

    Civil War didn’t change good to bad just gave bad the power. Similar to Wanted, when bad guys are the only ones left some do the right thing but not because they are good guys.

  • Scooby

    I don’t know about that…

    Zod gave Superman an impossible choice (well, impossible for anyone NOT psychotic):

    Recreate Zod’s version of Krypton from Superman’s DNA using Earth as a foundation (thus destroying humanity.)

    or

    Thwart Zod’s desire for a new Krypton by defending the lives of everyone on Earth. Not sacrificing real lives for the potential for new life.

    If Zod had said, “Come with me and help me seed an unpopulated planet with Kryptonian life and recreate my civilisation” I’m sure that Superman would have been glad to help. Earth didn’t have to die for Krypton to live – Zod was just trying to force Superman into a position in which he would reveal his true colours in Zod’s eyes. Was he a weakling pacifist like his father, or a true-born worthy Kryptonian like Zod.

    Superman didn’t choose Earth. He chose to defend life. Superman doesn’t just defend Earth and Humans, he defends the defenseless.

  • JokersNuts

    Just call it what it is, a self conscience super hero drama that’s embarrassed about who it’s lead character is.

  • Shawn Kane

    I can agree with certain points but the fact that Joe Q thinks that Zod was the hero doesn’t shock me. He’s never struck me as a guy who enjoys heroic characters, he seems to like his heroes with shades of gray.

  • Scooby

    I disagree.

    You form an opinion of a movie after viewing it. Quesada may not have seen the movie for a while, but he obviously formed that opinion straight after he saw it. When his recollection of the movie was fresh. And the opinion is well and truly flawed because it is not supported by what actually happened in the film. Maybe he wasn’t paying attention, maybe he’s just stupid. But it’s his opinion and making excuses or him is somewhat apologist.

    I predict he’s going to get wind of most of the negative comments about his critique, watch the film again, and re-evaluate his thoughts on MOS. He may still hate it, but at least hate it for a legitimate reason and not on a flawed understanding of the plot.

    The guys supposed to be an editor for chrissakes!

  • Scott

    Man of Steel might have seemed like a better film had they better managed our expectations. The trailer presented us with hope and light, but the movie presented us with angst and destruction. Many people must feel that their expectations were betrayed.

  • manposeur

    I loved man of steel, it wasn’t the camp and romance the curmudgeons were expecting.

  • Simon Is

    Man of Steel was a typical Snyder film: all spectacle, no heart. Unfortunately a Superman film needs a healthy dose of heart.

  • twobitcoder

    That was very insightful, @disqus_ux1aXGfola:disqus. Makes a lot of sense as to why Civil War DID NOT make sense. i.e. the U.S. policy at the time. Yes, indeed! Turn ethics upside down and use fear for motivation. If ever the U.S. skated on becoming a theocracy of rule by fear, it was during the Bush administration.

  • twobitcoder

    I just can’t make any sense out of Marvel for the last two years. They reboot every series about once a year so it’s impossible to find a good jump-in point, the stories are either mundane or esoteric beyond recognition. I gave up on Iron Man and Avengers because none of it made any sense. So the creative director who is responsible for that mess has no opinion about his competition. The only Marvel I read monthly now is Thor–which is the only comic that makes any sense and has consistency. The Marvel covers are also U-G-L-Y!! What’s with the red everywhere?

  • twobitcoder

    Don’t confuse ambiguity with complex morality. Making up stuff as you go along and squeezing it into a story is not morality, it’s manipulative marketing to sell books. You’re giving these writers too much credit.

  • stephenmonteith

    Excuse me, but, if MoS made him “angry”, then I say it did its job perfectly. I’m not talking about DC making Marvel angry; I’m talking about making Zod more than just a two-dimensional villain. Quesada felt sorry for him in the end, felt he was sympathetic, felt he was a great character with a believable motivation who left audiences wondering whether he wasn’t right all along. That’s a frickin’ compliment, right there.

  • twobitcoder

    [Things get super boring super fast if you go, “This is a good guy. This is a bad guy. The end.”]

    WHAT? I’m not aware of ANY comic character who is like that. Every one has an origin story that is anything but clear-cut. DC has revealed the origins of all their villains (last fall), and some are just insane, some are tragedies, like real life. What you confuse about the “old days” of comics was, those were the same characters but we didn’t necessarily know what their motivations were for hating/attacking the “heroes”. If you dig far enough, you’ll find a sane reason for Hitler’s motivations, but why would you want to–his actions made his motivations irrelevant.

  • twobitcoder

    You’re right about Doc Ock but stop it with the drama queen stuff. :)

  • twobitcoder

    No more unusual than Lex Luthor becoming president. It does reflect how insane real life can be.

  • twobitcoder

    You also missed key dialogue in the film, like Quesada appears to have–Superman was no longer a citizen of KRYPTON, he considered himself a citizen of EARTH. I haven’t seen the film since the theater, as I didn’t like it very much, but I remember at least that much of the main plot.

  • twobitcoder

    I disagree. He was invented in 1937 and had to evolve to remain relevant to readers. He’s not being re-invented over and over, he’s been fine tuned over the years like every comic character. Batman today compared to the 1960s TV show? He would laugh at the pajamas guy.

  • twobitcoder

    Your comment reminded me of the characters in the Star Wars prequels and their ambiguously confusing motivations. I still to this day can’t tell if Dooku was good or evil–but let’s not go OT, just an example.

  • twobitcoder

    I love Batman’s contiual opinion of Superman–he’s an alien, not to be trusted. Isn’t that the core of the situation? Superman might save people on trains, but when it comes to the really huge decisions, he always fails and it takes someone like Batman or WW to slap a dose of reality into him.

  • twobitcoder

    So, you go along with the idea that the color of light gives you superpowers. This coming from a time period (1937) when people believed Mars might be inhabited. Get real! At a certain point, that ridiculous plot item will have to be washed away like others in comicdom.

  • twobitcoder

    Batwoman

  • J-Beef

    Cyclops was right

  • twobitcoder

    There already was a black superman. HANCOCK.

  • J-Beef

    Yeah but it’s been a gradual personality change. Summers has watched mutants get shafted for years. Then Scarlet Witch nearly wiped them out. I think it would be ridiculous if he DIDN’T become more ruthless after that.

  • twobitcoder

    Yeah, and I’m getting really TO’d over Batman & Whoever over the past year. If they resurrect Damian I’m going to sell my entire B&R collection and never read it again.

  • twobitcoder

    What do you mean “just like”? Zod wanted to wipe out Earth. And Hitler didn’t try to perfect anything. You’re confusing master race philosophy with genetic engineering or something.

  • twobitcoder

    Pfft, LOL, you didn’t even watch Avengers then. There’s actually more than one moment where they are working to save civilians.

  • Brent

    No. Quesada is unaware of what genocide means as a whole, as are you, it seems.

  • twobitcoder

    These people who keep bringing up inconsistencies should be responded to like so: Watch the movie again so you don’t waste everyone’s time.

  • twobitcoder

    No different than the Justice League cartoons where half of Manhattan is destroyed in every episode. That’s true to the story. But yes, I agree that Supe could have handled it better, but this was an origin story, nothing like his later battles.

  • twobitcoder

    Or was that really Jesus in costume? While we’re on the subject of moral ambiguity…

  • Brian White

    I wanted to love One More Day but I didn’t

  • twobitcoder

    This movie will age very quickly, will have no lasting viewership. It’s like any book or film about Mars in the 1950s when they believed it might be inhabited. e.g. there are many Earth-like planets out there, and we’re on the verge of discovering them today.

  • Inactiveman

    I can understand how watching the Iron Man movies with the hundreds of people that Tony Stark kills, why he would think that Zod was the hero.

  • Jarrod

    So CBR can steal from other works and collect the money from ad revenue? They get paid for this? This passes as journalism and is acceptable? Really?
    Joe Q is right, of course.

  • Yul R. Espinosa

    To terraform you have to have the materials and minerals to terraform with. Maybe earth had precisely the right amount needed to terra form.

  • SwagMeOutHoe

    So your problem with it was the delivery then? That’s a little more understandable than just saying the dialogue was bad.

  • SwagMeOutHoe

    That little “Welcome to the Planet” joke is supposed to signal the audience that she knew who he was and not just some random reporter that Perry picked up off the street. Plus, she already visited his house in Smallville and talked to Pete Ross about the bus accident. More than likely, she already knew his name by the end of the movie.

  • The Griffinator

    Really? Is Joe Quesada really going around criticizing other people’s definition of heroism after he wrote Spider-Man essentially selling his wife to Satan in exchange for his help in undoing an act of evil that he couldn’t stop on his own?

    What’s the heroic message there? It’s okay to turn to Satan for help when the angels won’t give you what you want on a silver platter? Aunt May was shot and going to die, like millions of people around the world whose families will grieve, before eventually moving on. What makes Peter Parker so special, or weak, that HE can’t handle that like all those regular families do?

    Because the bullet was meant for him, and he chose to cover MJ instead of May? How is that choice any different than the one that led to his Uncle Ben dying? Why didn’t Peter turn to Satan to resurrect Ben? Did he love Ben less? Is his relationship with May creepier behind closed doors than the books have let on?

    Until Joe Quesada can admit that he screwed the pooch on that story and was too single-minded about what he wanted to do to listen to JMS and others who were telling him how awful his writing was, I don’t think he’s in any position to be criticizing anyone else’s ideas of what “Heroism” is.

  • Mark_S

    Not drama queen stuff. Try spending some time on the Spiderman boards, Kevin Nichols, MickeyB, Dan Slott… try posting an opinion they don’t like and then wait and hour and they will attack and then everyone piles on. I never hated other fans until I talked to them online. Calling someone a ‘retard’ because they disagree is standard for cbr, infact it’s a bit mild.

  • SwagMeOutHoe

    Based on Quesada’s comments, I’d say Zack Snyder and David S. Goyer did their job in making Zod into a character that you could sympathize with. Isn’t that supposed to be what a villain does, get you to believe in their ideas and maybe even agree with them at some point?

  • The Griffinator

    I love Marvel movies, but I also enjoyed the fact that DC made Zod relate-able on certain levels, and Superman flawed in others. Clark had never been in a fight like that before. He probably didn’t realize the destruction and deaths he’d be indirectly responsible for. This movie was more “Marvel” than it was DC, and I think that’s what’s bugging Joe.

    Does everyone not realize the opportunity this sets up? Picture Batman vs Superman starting with news reports of how reckless BOTH Kryptonians were during that fight. Picture Clark’s inner turmoil as he tries to deal with what he did in the heat of battle. Then picture Batman learning about all of this, wanting to take Superman down, cue the inevitable big fight, cue Batman seeing Superman act heroic during this fight and actually saving some people falling from buildings even if it means exposing his back to his enemy (he’s learning), cue Batman believing he can help Superman become the hero he was meant to be…

    …the story just writes itself. It’s a variation of Dark Knight Returns, and all those mistakes Superman made in Man Of Steel that people keep complaining about actually sets it all up.

  • The Griffinator

    Are you new to internet news? They all rip one another off for ad impressions.

  • The Griffinator

    Considering he was EIC during Civil War, he knew exactly what Snyder was doing making Zod relate-able and Superman flawed. It’s called good writing. Do we need to remind Joe of how Tony Stark was portrayed during Civil War?

  • Scott

    As someone who paid to go see Man of Steel, Quesada is in the IDEAL position to criticize what he has seen. He saw the film as a fan, he saw some things in the film that bothered him, and he expressed those ideas. He’s entitled to do that, just as you are entitled to disagree with him. I think we’re forgetting that it’s far easier to criticize a story than to create one.

  • The Griffinator

    Then what you’re saying is that he is simply a hypocrite for claiming he wants his villains to be true villains, and heroes to be true heroes. And before you ask me to explain why, I just did, in the comment you replied to.

  • The Griffinator

    He wants “black hats vs white hats” DC to go back to being just that, because he wants Marvel to be the guys with the relate-able villains and flawed heroes. Joe’s just being a big baby, here.

  • Scott

    I make excuses because people are too quick to anger and they make blind assumptions. I disagree with Quesada’s opinion, and I think he got some of the details of the movie wrong. That aside, I fail to see what has people so upset. I fail to see why this has become another exercise in fans expressing hostility. I fail to see why his opinion of a film (a film I thought was mediocre at best) somehow reflects on his ability to produce good comics. Yes, One More Day sucked. But Brand New Day rocked. He accomplished good as well as bad.

  • antonio dueñas

    Yeah,as heroic as Hitler,Stalin and Al Qaeda,who just wanted the best for their people.Give me a break…

  • Scott

    I don’t like pretending to know what people think or want. I think it takes us further away from the truth. And if it turns out you’re wrong, then you’ve gotten angry over nothing.

  • antonio dueñas

    The problem is that the choose of sides was totally wrong in so many cases.A pro-goverment Spider-man?Ridiculous.

  • The Griffinator

    For someone who claims he doesn’t pretend to know what people think or want, you sure are quick to decide that I’m angry. I could not be in a better mood, to be honest. But you go ahead and continue to idealize yourself while looking down at others there, buddy. ;)

  • MegaGearMax

    Charles or Storm, or even Wolverine didn’t get that extreme when things got worse. I think it all started with Vulcan being revealed and Danger being held against her will–that made him turn away from Xavier.

    Still, not a fan of that direction for him.

  • Scott

    You were complaining and calling Quesada a big baby, so I thought you were angry. Honest mistake. If it’s any consolation, I’m glad you’re not angry. Being angry about what some guy said about some movie is a waste of energy. Cheers.

  • The Griffinator

    Just sharing an opinion. I think Quesada is a hypocrite for criticizing anyone’s view of what villainy or heroism should be. But I’m no more “angry” about it than he was when he criticized Snyder’s work.

    We’re all just sharing opinions, here.

  • J-Beef

    Charles has done some awful things (I’d argue his character has been destroyed far more in the comics). Storm has achieved nothing (she’s led the X-men in the past; seriously she needs to step up) and Wolverine is just a hypocrite. But I understand how you feel. I think they want a Xavier/Magneto type dynamic. Two sides but at least this time there is no clear right or wrong.

  • Rhys

    Joe should watch it again. As much as I don’t like the movie (and I don’t) Zod was never going to take what he wanted and leave. He was up to kill every one here AND save his race. In his mind, One REQUIRED the other.

  • j milgerson

    Brilliant line, and scene. When I see some of the comments sometimes, I wonder if people actually saw the movie… It’s clear Quesada didn’t. That was a cheap appeal to the internet Marvelites who have gone so over the top with trying to convince the world that MOS was the worst film ever made. It’s ridiculous.

  • Zagreus

    When Cap kills 25 people, he just does it. Supes kills one guy and cries like a bitch. :)

  • SwagMeOutHoe

    Snyder already said that the death and destruction done in Metropolis is going to play a big part in BvS, so you’re scenario could be very likely.

  • The Griffinator

    Did he? Well there you go. =)

  • Jimmy Russell

    you are a racist you need to be arrested for hate speech.

  • Itzo

    Joe Quesada thinks following orders makes Zod a hero. Tell that to the Nazi’s when they used that excuse at the Nuremberg Trials. There isn’t a good excuse for genocide.

  • Charles Xavier

    In my opinion, Winter Soldier wasn’t even a villain. He was an abused, brain-washed, robotic assassin that barely had thoughts of his own other than the missions he was assigned to. They literally took him out of the freezer, gave him a mission, reset him, then put him back on ice. He’s more of an antagonist than a villain, and even then he’s more of a victim than anything else.

  • Jerry Jackson

    Oh my. Comic books aren’t real life, ya know. They don’t even correlate.

  • Charles

    Make no mistake, villains can still be cool AND cardboard. There are a lot of MCU villains that look cool but are cardboard and lame when you really get down to their motives: Malekith, Red Skull, Killian, Obadiah, Whiplash, Abomination, Hammer….they’re all kind of generic and uninteresting to me. ESPECIALLY Malekith and Red Skull. The way they portrayed Malekith was unforgivably bad.

    Loki is an interesting anti-hero and Alexander Pierce was probably the most developed villain I’ve seen since Loki. I like Robert Redford and I think his goal was actually something you can sort of sympathize with/understand.

    But, other than Loki, I’ve never enjoyed the villains in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. But, hey, that’s just my opinion. I can see why people like them.

  • Charles

    Were the Nazis genetically engineered for one purpose in life??

  • Charles

    Were they genetically engineered for one purpose in life?

  • Charles

    Superman has morals.

  • Charles

    As much as I disliked the last half of Man of Steel, I don’t understand why it gets so much hate. Movies like Iron Man 3 and Thor: The Dark World were much more unbearable. It’s really a head-scratcher why people bash MoS but actually think the Phase 2 Marvel movies are good. (Except maybe Winter Soldier…first MCU movie since Avengers that I thought was decent). And I’m not even a huge DC fan. I just think the critics are letting mediocre Marvel Cinematic Universe movies slide.

  • nerdbasher

    The best villains (I’d argue that villain and antagonist are almost interchangeable) are ones that have layers and challenge our perceptions.

  • Michael Weyer

    I never thought I’d say this but I think I actually agree with Joe Quesada.

  • Andrew Kilian

    Tony and Richards are scientists and often science is all about coulda not about shoulda. Tony is a weapons manufacturer, weaponizing God dna to keep up with the superhero arms race is a natural. Also, both those characters have a history of making those sorts of mistakes.

    Peter being sick AND tired of being dumped on and finally gets to be in the clear and in the right. I totally got his reasons. Also, when 9/11 first happened just about everybody was on board with the Patriot Act. People you wouldn’t think were like, “Yeah, give gov’t all the power to hunt those turrists. Gov’t overreach what’s that?!” Peter perfectly symbolized the everyman whose for it until they see how wrong it is and about face

    As for She-hulk after 9/11 there were a lot of laws being passed that were getting reinterpreted by signing statements, or only seen by congress while under a gag order. You weren’t supposed to be rooting for all those things, just as no one in their right mind rooted for Cheney. A certain amount of latitude is necessary for characters that are green and can throw buses.

    Comics reflect the zeitgeist, and are most successful when they do. Marvel did it in the 60’s while DC was still acting like your uptight parent who likes Joe McCarthy.

  • Andrew Kilian

    I think Peter saw his chance to be in the clear and not kicked around anymore and took it. Also, MJ and Aunt May sort of talked him into it.

    I’m just bothered that everyone forgot about it right afterwards.

  • Andrew Kilian

    I guess if you want uncomplicated stories with no depth or challenging moral questions maybe you should read something else.

  • Mark_S

    She-Hulk didn’t take the time to read the law that affected every aspect of her life and the lives of her friends? Tony and Reed didn’t see the downside of putting superheroes in the negative zone for life? Despite the fact that Reed himself has said that staying in the negative zone too long could cause insanity? Reed who once spoke out against the same sort of law? This plus the fact that while marvel was clearly against the Bush administration none of the writers ever bothered to say what the law was, who proposed it, passed it, which party supported it and didn’t… The entire understanding by marvel of the US legal system was kindergarten level at best, as was the plot. It was an Underdog plot, Simon Bar Sinister becomes mayor and rules like a king, the writers/editors at marvel had no idea what a law was and I doubt (with the exception of the guy currently writing She-Hulk) that they do now.
    They’ve never really moved past that either. WWH, AvX… simplistic, mindless slugfest between heroes and heroes with threadbare plots and splash pages. There’s not a hero or heroine at marvel that I can think of who wouldn’t betray friends, family or team mates or wouldn’t act like a complete idiot to move the plot along.

  • http://www.thenerdavenger.com/ Kane Bunce

    Actually most of the time Batman and Superman have a lot of respect for each other due to a lot more similarities in their goals than people realise. Even Batman is a lot more about hope than people realise – the hope that no one ever has to face the tragedy he faced. He fights crime to stop others from going through what he went through, which Superman has a lot of respect for. And Batman has a lot of respect for Superman’s view fo humanity and wanting to improve humanity. And Superman being an alien is not an issue to Batman.

    Also, so what if Superman is an alien? No rational person would not respect him for that. That is much of the point with Lex Luthor, ie, that he is an irrational maniac and his hatred for Superman and why he hates Superman is the main manifestion of his irrationality and madness.

  • Allan Mancilla

    #1: Quesada, BITE ME. You’d be singing a different tune if your montly paycheck came from DC Entertainment.
    #2: Quesada a fan of Superman? Again… BITE ME.

  • Mark_S

    Now that I think about it the shra was more like the aca than it was the patriot act. If you didn’t sing up for the shra Tony would sick the cape killers on you, if you don’t sign up for the aca the irs comes after you.

  • Andrew Kilian

    $200 fine isn’t quite as bad as being indefinitely detained in the negative zone, but close.

  • Vince Yim

    For me, it was the tone. The film just felt cold, numbing, and nihilistic. Certainly, it does have a sense of gritty realism, which works great for a more reality-based superhero like Batman, but this is Superman that we’re talking about. I don’t generally go to see Superman contributing to millions of dollars in collateral damage, even if that’s something that would probably happen if Kryptonians came to Earth for real. I know I’m in the minority, but I much preferred Singer’s Superman Returns, which did have its flaws, but was at least fun to watch.

  • atalex

    Are you familiar with the book/movie “All The President’s Men”? If not, google it real fast and read the synopsis. Done? Good. Now, imagine that “All The President’s Men” ended with Woodward and Bernstein visiting Nixon in the White House to tell him everything they’d uncovered. Then, they tell him not to worry — they’re going to bury the story of all his crimes because they’re such fans of his Cambodian bombing campaign. Then, after they leave, Nixon breaks down in tears over the awful burden of knowing what’s best for everyone in the world. That was what I got out of CW:F #11. And that’s without even getting into the Sally Floyd/Cap confrontation or the whole “Dark Speedball” nonsense.

  • Mark_S

    It’s 200 now. In the future? In both cases just breathing and not doing anything is enough to break the law. Reed and Tony were not only ok with that Tony built Cape Killers and Reed built a prison and Tony made billions off of both of them.
    Bottom line is that during the era of cw/wwh/dr marvel gave me plenty of reasons not to think of these characters as heroes and after that they never gave me a reason to think of them as heroes again. They’ve done nothing with Tony Stark to make me think of him as anything but a successful supervillain with good PR.

  • Adam L

    Are you taking things seriously again? You might want to stop that.

  • nerdbasher

    Oh Jeez

    Mephisto =/= Satan

    Keep your overbearing Christian sensibilities out of the story.

  • The Griffinator

    First of all, I’m agnostic. Second of all, although Quesada tried defending himself the same way you just did, Marvel themselves have repeatedly referred to Mephisto as the Devil – and his realm as Hell – in their very own books; both before OMD and since.

    So that’s twice you were wrong in just 11 words. Care to go for the record, nerdbasher?

  • Andrew Kilian

    My mistake, it’s $95 per adult this year. It goes up next year.

    I think it was the whole in for a penny in for a pound thing that got away from them. Oh yeah, the Superhuman Restraint Units. If Tony had come out and called them that, then yeah he’d totally be Dr Evil. I thought they were a nickname the victims gave them. Reed building a huge spaceprison doesn’t sound far fetched. Having it get away from him and house former heroes also is very Marvel. It made for a great story about how good intentions and doing what comes naturally isn’t always the best. Also, Tony owns a corporation, he’s always made money from his inventions.(Shrug)

    Tony was an alcoholic, and there was a story that Reed may have sent the FF purposely into space as an experiment (later proved to be a forgery by Doom), but Reed knew that was something he might have done. Marvel heroes are always conflicted and make mistakes. That’s what makes them human as well as interesting. It only works for Marvel though. Have WW snap a guys neck and shes ruined.

  • Mark_S

    Mistakes are one thing, betrayal is another. Another problem was the lack of consequences -real ones- for Tony or Reed or any of the others who hunted down the renegades. The storyline introduced some interesting concepts and the marvel writers didn’t explore any of them beyond the most simplistic level, nor did they ever give a real reason why Tony Stark isn’t still hated. At the very least he should still be hated by Thor and Reed skipped away with no more a dark look from Sue who revealed a very weak character as She-Hulk did later on.
    But then simple is how they write, I think it took five minutes to rebuild New York after wwh and no more than a half hour for everyone to forget it. As long as they keep writing simple and view backstabbing as either a virtue or something of no consequence then I’ll stay away from them.

  • Andrew Kilian

    Oh yeah. they basically have to get on with the next big event. Also, Skrulls! Everyone unifies against the Skrulls, all is forgiven, let’s never speak of this again.

    In a comic universe so convoluted where storylines have to be forgotten so continuity doesn’t implode in on itself, and readership churns it’s kind of necessary though dumb. I’d rather have that than rebooting the universe like DC.

  • nerdbasher

    Actually no, I’m not wrong at all. Mephisto’s realm isn’t *hell*, it’s a dimension which looks like a christian interpretation of Hell but it’s not, and Mephisto could be called *a* devil but he is not THE devil, aka Satan.

    “He (Mephisto) was later revealed to be the being to whom Johnny Blaze had sold his soul and had been cursed to become the Ghost Rider,[volume & issue needed] in a retroactive continuity that placed him in the role originally played by Satan. This was later retconned back to Satan,[volume & issue needed] though Mephisto’s influence is still felt in the 1990s by the Danny Ketch Ghost Rider.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephisto_(comics)

    Would you look at that – Mephisto and Satan are two different characters!

    There’s a big difference between calling a character a devil, and THE devil.
    So fine you’re agonistic, in which case you have no excuse for such overwrought hyperbole.

    So that’s twice you were wrong in just two posts. Care to etc etc etc question mark

  • Guest

    God I hate arguing with nerds. And you people wonder why you can’t get laid. FFS, I think it’s pretty obvious what my point was and other writers HAVE referred to Mephisto as the Devil. The point stands. Live with it.

  • Truth

    By that logic I guess the Nazis were the heroes of WWII.

  • nerdbasher

    Haha oh wow, aren’t you a high caliber of intellect? You got challenged and showed up and now you’re all “duhrduhrr nerds can’t get laid hrurrr” like a sulky baby. You do know YOU are posting on a comic site comment section just like I am, right? Thanks for showing your true colours though, you emotionally stunted manchild.

    MY point still stands. Your 4ft tall Napoleon-esque ego however is laying on the curbside catching it’s breath, apparently. Stay Beta, brah.

  • SageShinigami

    Well, then he’s right. You relate to Marvel’s heroes. You aspire to DC’s heroes. They compliment one another. When they’re both alike then everything is very same-y.

  • Li

    he must’ve fallen asleep during the whole dream sequence with the ocean of skulls, and gravity machine with the snake robot part. They were kind of the lulls of the movie…

  • Li

    civil war was dope. your opinion is wrong.

  • Gomez Pants

    Then you have to explain why all of krypton wasn’t flying around and shooting lasers out of their eyes. Why would a race that powerful even make spaceships?

  • Taiichi

    Now I’d really like to know what Quesada thinks of the characters in “No Country for Old Men”.

  • Rexiiel Maghuum

    all MARVEL stories are BULLSHIT since that Quesada guy is on command. Bullshit and crapola story lines, like “the sons of Norman Osborn and Gwen Stacy”, and Peter P. giving his life away and his wife to a devil for the return of AUNT MAY!!!!! this is pure MEGA CRAP, PURE MULCH. And it´s a shame that they, the “creative” people in charge think we are going to buy that cheap story gimmicks to enhance poor marketings? Sorry but you insulted the consumer intelligence with your bad products. Marvel virtualy died in the year 2000.

  • Mark_S

    No it isn’t.

  • Planetary

    Ah the piss poor “analogy”. Children in an antique store wouldn’t give two shits about all the antiques if they were fighting off a group of people trying to murder them and everyone in the store. And who also want to burn the store to the ground.

  • Marcus

    Which was a stupid scene by the way.
    Listen I want your help so I’ll show you the most disturbing imagery that you might imagine. Because that will convince you right ?

  • Hero

    Lois yells out “Clark!” to Superman after he saves her from the crashing pod and flies off to save Martha from Zod. And the S being a Kryptonian symbol with a different meaning isn’t that far fetched because it’s a simple shape. You drop a piece of rope or thread and it stands a chance of accidentally falling into an S-shape.

  • Hero

    What really hurt the validity of Zod’s motivations is the fact that he got over the crippling effects of Earth’s atmosphere in a couple of days.

  • Mike McTighe

    It’s not so bad, and yet considering the massive backlash to Superman Returns, Man of Steel reminds me of The Incredible Hulk. It’s a movie everyone has to admit is an improvement over it’s predecessor and yet it’s mostly just serving to reintroduce a character in hopes of adding him to a larger franchise (which they’ve done in both cases) while setting up some other possibilities. However perhaps on it’s own it is not so good, or seems better in light of what it followed. And it has a sharp cast. Ultimately I think they would’ve been better off using Brainiac, his cold and emotionless view of life would’ve made the devastation at the end more understandable. Because with Zod, it just did not make any kind of sense.

  • truth

    You are so fucking dumb.

  • truth

    Holy WOW! Holy fucking wow.